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The Forum for Political Dialogue met between 1996 and 1998 in Belfast as part of the negotiations that led to the Good Friday Agreement.
Source material
Northern Ireland Forum For Political Dialogue Record of Debates (Print) VOLUME 1
Details
Volume 1 (14 June 1996 to 27 September 1996)
Crown Copyright 2000
Produced in Northern Ireland on behalf of the Northern Ireland Assembly by the Stationery Office Ltd, which is responsible for printing and publishing Northern Ireland Assembly publications.
Associated with
Committee: The Forum
Memorandum from the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to Mr John Gorman, Chairman of the Northern Ireland Forum Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Calls for Nominations for a Permanent Chairman Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Gorman to Remain as Interim Chair Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Ken Maginnis: Further to the point of order — if it is a point of order — Mr Chairman. I should like, on behalf of the Ulster Unionist Party, to welcome you, Sir, to the Chair. You have an enviable record of service to the nation, and we are... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Adjournment to Consult on the Chairmanship Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
It was so decided. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Signing of the Roll of Members Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Extension of the Meeting by 30 Minutes Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Establishment of a Rules Committee Accordance with Initial Rule 2(3) Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Ken Maginnis: Now that the sitting has been extended to 5 o'clock, Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Suspension of Rule 2(3) Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms Brid Rodgers: If we postpone the election of a Chairman we shall be postponing the whole Forum. Our position is that that should not happen. Mr Trimble: No. The Member has got it wrong. Ms Brid Rodgers: That is our position. We do not want a... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Establishment of a Rules Committee with 12 Members Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Peter Robinson: Taking it as a point of order, I have no real difficulty — nor do my colleagues — with the suggestion as such. I just do not think that it can be made without certain other events intervening. The Forum was set up under the Northern... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Gorman to Remain as Interim Chair Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Vote on Proposal to Suspend Rule 2(3) Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev William McCrea: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. This debate is all very well, but would it not be right and proper for us to abide by the list of business set down for today? Should we not deal with item 3 before item 4? That would be good... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
3.30 pm The following Members signed the Roll: Antony Alcock, John Alderdice, Eileen Bell, Thomas Benson, Robert Bolton, David Brewster, David Browne, Joe Byrne, Cecil Calvert, David Campbell, Gregory Campbell, Hugh Carr, Mervyn Carrick, Hugh Casey,... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Did I hear somebody say that there would be three DUP members of the Rules Committee? Mr Peter Robinson: Yes. The Chairman: I do not quite understand that. How does it come about? Mr Peter Robinson: The Forum will have to decide... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Editors' note: The Chairman moves on with the debate and does not call for a vote.] Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Editors' Note: The Forum does not proceed to vote on this proposal.] Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Vote on the Chairman Joins the Rules Committee as Ex-Officio Member Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Vote on the Establishment of a Rules Committee with 10 Members in Accordance with Initial Rule 2(3) Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Extension of Meeting by 30 Minutes to 5:30PM Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Resolved: That the sitting be extended to 5.30 pm . — [Mr Peter Robinson] Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Resolved: That a Rules Committee be established with a membership of 10; that, so far as is practicable, the membership shall reflect the balance of parties in the Forum; and that the Committee shall have power to invite such persons as they may... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Remaining Members Sign the Roll Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I would like to hear from Mr Durkan, who has been hopping up and down. Mr Durkan: First of all, the Rules state that the Chairman's ruling shall be final on all questions of procedure and order — not Dr Paisley's, not Mr Robinson's, not... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Durkan:] Secondly, the Rules say "so far as is practicable, reflects the balance of parties in the Forum." The sort of formula that is being proposed or suggested to you as being what the law requires, by Mr Robinson and others, can hardly be... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Vote on Proposal of Establishing a Rules Committee with 10 Members in Accordance with Initial Rule 2(3) Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: Mr Chairman, can you make it clear what majority is needed to pass this? The Chairman: I understand that it is a simple majority. Mr Peter Robinson: May I have your interpretation of Rule 13(1), Mr Chairman? The Chairman: As this... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: According to the letter of law, Members should sign in your presence, Mr Chairman. The Chairman: Yes. Mr Peter Robinson: Which takes about 50 people out. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Establishment of a Business Committee Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: That was proposed some time ago. Mr Ken Maginnis: I apologize. I did not hear. The Chairman: Business is going through in a great way now. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Allow Members to Review Record Before Publication Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I do not see why not. I am very happy to say yes to that, but will I be told that it too is against the law? It was so decided. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
It was so decided. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Agenda for Next Meeting Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Certainly. That is a good idea. This has been a good day. Thank you very much for being so courteous. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Setting the Date of the Next Meeting Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Adjournment of Meeting Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was adjourned at 5.25 pm. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: It seems that there is a need for further consultation. In the meantime, I suppose I should ask for a proposal that I carry on as interim Chairman in order that today's proceedings can continue. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Resolved: That there be appointed a Business Committee comprising one member of each group, except the Democratic Unionist Party, the Social Democratic and Labour Party and the Ulster Unionist Party, each of which shall have two members. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
During the course of the meeting the following Member signed the Roll: May Beattie. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Suspension of Meeting Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: Further to that point of order, Mr Chairman. First, how long will the suspension be? Secondly, will there be a break at lunch-time, or shall we continue until 4 o'clock? The Chairman: The suspension will be until 12 o'clock, and... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Announcement Before the Chairman Takes the Chair Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: With regard to Dr Paisley's question, Mr Chairman, can you say whether it is your intention to sit until 4 o'clock? The Chairman: If necessary. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
To Hold a Business Committee Meeting During the Suspension Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Cedric Wilson: Mr Chairman, I should like to identify the United Kingdom Unionist Party with your condemnation of this act of depravity. One thing that added insult to very substantial injury, after the atrocity, was the crocodile tears of the... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Prohibition of Mobile Phones in the Chamber Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Signing of the Roll by Remaining Members Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
John Gorman To Remain as Interim Chairman Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Expression of Sadness at the IRA Bombing in Manchester Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Writing to the Lord Mayor of Manchester to Express the Views of the Forum Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I would be very happy to do that, if you all agree. It was so decided. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Postponement of Meetings until Election of the Chair Can Proceed Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I think that Dr Alderdice or somebody wanted to speak. Is it Mr McBride? Mr Farren: I have not changed parties, despite the fact that we re-occupied the seats originally allocated to us. The Chairman: Sorry. Mr Farren: The SDLP's... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Adjournment for Lunch Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Forum to Meet Next Friday Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I support what Mr Maginnis has been saying. There are some people here who, because of a long-standing commitment, will be unable to attend the meeting next Friday. This is a matter for the Forum to decide. It must have the final... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: May I take it that nobody opposes the proposal? Members indicated assent. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Consultation on the Rules Committee Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms Brid Rodgers: I speak for my party, which has made it clear that it is not putting forward a candidate for Chair of the Forum. We are neither agreeing nor disagreeing with any candidate that may be put forward. With due respect to you, Sir, and not... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Ken Maginnis: Mr Chairman, I heard you say that you had chaired five meetings. In fact, you have had many more. As someone who was on that Committee, I thought that one or two of the parties seemed reluctant to bring forward substantive suggestions... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Editors' Note: This proposal does not seem to be followed up.] Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms McWilliams rose. The Chairman: I am sorry to say that I have forgotten your name. Ms McWilliams: I am Monica McWilliams of the Northern Ireland Women's Coalition. There are not too many of us here, so I should like you to note that, Mr Chairman. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hume: Let us remind ourselves what we are talking about. We are talking about setting up a Rules Committee, which will not be exercising political or economic power of any description over any section of our people. For that reason no party need... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Deferral of Matter of Chairmanship to the Next Week's Meeting Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Deferral of Election of the Chairman for Two Weeks Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Cedric Wilson: I support Dr Paisley's proposal that we continue this meeting, with yourself, Sir, in the Chair. I should like to register the United Kingdom Unionist Party's great satisfaction with the proceedings so far. I hope that all Members... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Establishment of a Rules Committee with 10 Members in Accordance with Initial Rule 2(3) Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: These Rules were not drawn up by us. We argued in the House of Commons. We did not agree with them. On the other hand, Mr McGrady and his friends agreed with them because they thought that the election result would be other than the... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McCartney rose. The Chairman: Ah, the leading barrister in the place. Mr McCartney: I was not here. Mr Chairman, would you like me to sign so that you can put the Question to me again? The Chairman: It is probably another piece of... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Determining a Better System of Allowing Members to Speak Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Call to Order Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Congratulate Alderdice on Elevation to House of Lords Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Refer Rule 6(7) to the Rules Committee Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Ken Maginnis rose. Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. The Chairman: Mr Maginnis first. Mr Ken Maginnis: Rule 2(3) is interpreted by my party, which wants to see the Forum work, not as making the Rules Committee exclusive but,... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McCartney: What appears to have been forgotten is that the election, bizarre though it was — I described it as an electoral Caliban — demonstrated on a province-wide basis the support for the respective parties that stood. Therefore the Secretary of... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Peter Robinson: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. Two matters that have been raised should be cleared up. The balance of parties cannot be argued about; it was set down clearly after the election. Whether or not it is liked by every Member of the... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Peter Robinson: I agree with you, Mr Chairman, and indeed, for that matter, with the Secretary of State with regard to this provision's not being a Rule of Procedure. It is for precisely that reason that it should not be sent back to the Rules... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Amendments to the Rules be Left with the Committee and Brought to the Forum After Study Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Refer Rules A(1) and 13(1) to the Rules Committee Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: As a member of the Rules Committee, who, with a few other people here, worked extremely hard to get these Rules to the Forum, which, after great deliberation, adopted them, I agree with Dr Paisley. I was saddened that the Secretary of... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms Brid Rodgers: It appears to me that the reason 10 is mentioned is that there are 10 parties or groups. The Chairman: I am sure that that is right. Ms Brid Rodgers: I suggest that, in that spirit, "the balance of parties" means one from every party... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Empey: Before going into that, may I make just one point? We could go through all this to doomsday. The reality is that the arithmetic that Mr Robinson proposed would give his party and the UK Unionist Party more voting members than my party. If we... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Welcome to the eighth plenary meeting of the Northern Ireland Forum. I hope you have had a good break and have come back refreshed to this new and rather splendid accommodation. I must say that when I first saw it four weeks ago I had two... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Sound System and Microphones Inadequate Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Invitation to the Secretary of State Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: I am sorry for rising again, but you have confused me, Mr Chairman — not for the first time. Following the comments of Mr Maginnis, I suggested that the Secretary of State be invited to the next meeting of the Rules of Procedure... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I am sure that that was inherent in what I said. I undertook to talk to the Secretary of State. Mr Hugh Smyth: No. I am suggesting that you put this to him. You said that you would bear the suggestion in mind. Bearing in mind is vastly... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Shannon: I should like to comment on some remarks that you made earlier, Mr Chairman. This is important. As you outlined the economic situation in the province, it sounded like a PR job. We in the Ards Borough Council have had no inward investment... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: So the two Rules are to go back to the Committee? Mr Peter Robinson: With one rider: that the Committee should report back next Friday. The Chairman: Yes. Is it agreed that the Rules Committee will meet before next Friday and report... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Debate Topic: Boycott of Businesses Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: The Rules say that if there is a motion, I ought to test the views of the Forum by seeking a vote on it. However, it seems to me that not every suggestion should be treated as a motion. Is everybody happy? Several Members: Agreed. Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Initial Rules of Procedure Drafted by the Secretary of State Wednesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[The Chairman:] I think that it would be appropriate to give parties an opportunity to comment, though I do not think we need a major debate. We posted the suggested Rules to you all on Wednesday evening [...] Wednesday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Peter Robinson:] There are a number of issues that flow from the Rules. I understood that during the course of today's meeting we would be having something similar to a Second Reading debate on the issues, that during the course of the coming week... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I am very grateful to you, Mr Robinson. There are two points with which I entirely agree. I do think that there is a case for some degree of reflection — even prayer — before we start our meetings and that the presumption with regard to... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Membership of the Committees: Nominations from Smaller Parties Friday September 1996Committee: Rules Committee
First Draft of Rules of Procedure Wednesday June 1996Committee: The Forum
First Draft of Amended Rules of Procedure - Created by the Rules Committee Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Ms Brid Rodgers:] Draft Rule 11(1)(c) says "uses objectionable words which he refuses to withdraw". Is that an oversight, or is it just an assumption that she — she — will not be making objectionable remarks? The Chairman: It is certainly an... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: Can't the Committee go ahead if it has a quorum, even though other parties are boycotting it? The Chairman: Of course. I am glad you made that point. Mr Hugh Smyth: Dr Paisley has used the word "boycotting". I am not sure where... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Rev Dr Ian Paisley:] Secondly, I do not agree with what Mr Maginnis said about going to the Secretary of State and having a word to see if he would look favourably on the draft Rules. The Forum should be its own master. It should state what it wants... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Behaviour in the Gallery Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McKee: I agree with every word and action of Mr McCrea. He has hit the nail on the head today, just as he did the other night. The people of Ulster know what is going on. It is others who have misjudged the situation. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I take the point. We should make sure that people in the Gallery are aware of the Rule. It is impossible to have a constructive, intelligent and orderly debate if such things go on. Anyone behaving in such a way in future will not be... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Ken Maginnis:] I do not presume, as a member of the Committee, to speak for the Committee, but I should like to deal for a moment with some of the issues of the past week. I almost feel that I need to protect Mr Paisley, insofar as his Colleague Mr... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Flying of the Union Flag Above the Forum Building Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to the second meeting of the Forum. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: That is a very valid point. In future an announcement will be made. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I accept that. The Business Committee will convene at once. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was suspended at 11.12 am and resumed at 12.05 pm. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Editors' Note: No objections were raised] Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was suspended at 12.46 pm and resumed at 1.35 pm. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. The Chairman: Ms Bell has been patiently putting her hand up. Ms Bell: I first put my hand up about 10 minutes ago. Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I want to make a point of order before we leave this. Ms... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
2.45 pm Mr Hussey: These have been described as draft Rules. It is disappointing that what we are dealing with is an amended version of Rules sent to us by the Secretary of State. I hope that this body can agree that, as has been suggested elsewhere,... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Meeting Extension Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Debate resumed. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Rev Dr Ian Paisley:] There is one thing that I find very discouraging about these Rules, and that is that there is no mention of the important task of getting reports on subjects in respect of which the general public have an input. What are we going... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Hugh Smyth:] However, let me get back to the important business that we are here for. What we must all remember — and Mr Ken Maginnis has already mentioned this — is that the Rules Committee represented every party in the Forum, including Mr... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Membership of the Committees: Confirmation of Arrangements Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Broadcasting Facilities: NIO's Refusal to let Press Use Facilities Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: That is a helpful piece of information. I shall certainly pass it on. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms Bell: What I was going to say has been superseded. As a member of the Rules Committee, I was under the impression that we would get a preliminary report. I expected some debate, but not a long-drawn-out discussion, as there would be an opportunity... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Cedric Wilson: I should like to refer to something that has been mentioned by a few people in passing. First, I ask you, Mr Chairman, to confirm that I cautioned the Rules Committee against the inflated view of some members that they were writing... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Meeting Adjournment Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was adjourned at 4.10 pm. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: We have taken quite a lot of time on this, and I notice a certain amount of ennui. Rev Dr Ian Paisley: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. Mr Trimble: Is it a point of order? Rev Dr Ian Paisley: It is a good point of order. The Gentleman... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Has anybody got a vital point to make? Rev Dr Ian Paisley: Yes — Mr Dodds. The Chairman: I thought he had given way. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Use of Point of Order Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
A Member: That is not what the Member said the first time. Mr McCartney: It is what I am saying now that matters. The Chairman: Please address the Forum through the Chair. Mr Hugh Smyth: I second the proposal. The Chairman: Now we have a proposal... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
It was so decided. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Several Members: Agreed. The Chairman: The report has been prepared and will be circulated. It would be slightly denigratory of the work of the Business Committee to bounce this on you at the end of what has been a reasonably long day. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Information on the Next Meeting Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Postponement of Discussion of Chairmanship until after Next Friday Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Several Members: Agreed. It was so decided. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Members Receive a Copy of a Draft Report from the Rules Committee Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: It is absolutely essential that we get the Rules right. We would look totally idiotic going to the Secretary of State with a series of Rules that we thought had been agreed, only to find that we had to go through another debate. Mr Ian... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: We will not produce anything at the meeting next Friday which has not gone through that process. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Call to Order Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Request for Earlier Submissions of Reports Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Welcome to the ninth plenary meeting of the Forum, on a lovely day. We thank God for one bit of good news for farmers. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Farren: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. I returned home last night at midnight and for the first time had sight of the amended Rules. Unlike Mr Robinson, when I drive from Portstewart to Belfast I have to keep my eye on the road, so I had very... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Dodds:] One of the things that should be considered is in Rule 3(1), which says that the Forum shall exercise control of its own business. This, I think, is an excellent addition, but it says "subject to the Chairperson's ruling". It should be the... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Weir: As the old saying goes, brevity is the soul of wit — something that seems to be lost on several Members — so I will be brief. I can be. Mr Ken Maginnis: It's hard to be beaten by a junior, isn't it, Mr McCartney? Mr Weir: There are two... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Postponement of Rules Committee Meeting to Tuesday Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: As the Committee pleases. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Meeting Adjournment Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was adjourned at 3.30 pm. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Committee Elections Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Set the Record Straight Regarding Agreement of Rules of Procedure Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. Mr Robinson asked me to give way. Mr Weir: Yes, that is what I said. Perhaps the Member should speak a little less and listen a little more. A Member: The junior is in his place now. Mr Weir: We... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Amendments to Rules of Procedure be Proposed in the Forum in a Second Reading Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Amendments to the Rules of Procedure be Referred to the Rules Committee Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Create a Report on the Business Committee Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: As the Forum asked me to do, I invited the Secretary of State to attend a meeting of the Rules Committee at 1.00 pm last Tuesday. He replied within two hours to my letter. He said he was unable to attend but offered, instead, to send two... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Debate Topic: Housing to be Considered by Business Committee on Thursday Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Meeting Adjournment Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was adjourned at 4.00 pm. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Support British Industry by Eating Beef for Lunch Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Robert John White:] I was rather disappointed that there was no beef on today's menu in the Dining Room. Chicken is fine, but — no harm to Mr Junkin — not even ostrich would compare with a slice or two, or three, of roast beef. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I am perfectly happy to do that. My use of the word "unanimous" excluded the views expressed by the Women's Coalition. In the Forum Committee there was a degree of unanimity. Views were so close as to make my use of the word "unanimous"... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was called to order at 10.06 am (Mr J R Gorman in the Chair). Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Yes. The meeting of the Rules Committee I will have to discuss with my colleagues and with the Forum team, but the Forum meeting should begin at 10.00am. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Well, I was perhaps less than legalistic in my words to Mr McGrady, but what I said was true. We had dialogue on the board of the Housing Executive for many years. Anyway, I was making a very simple point. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I managed to get some delicious cold beef, but it was not quite what I led you all to believe we were going to have. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
During the course of the meeting the following Member signed the Roll: Joseph Gaston. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Preliminary Matters: Reasons for Lower Attendance Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Agenda Item: Review of Rules Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: Before we do that I should like to express the sympathy of my Colleagues and myself to the SDLP and to Mr McGrady on the death of his brother. Our thoughts and prayers are with him. Mr Ken Maginnis: Mr Chairman, I join you and Dr... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Ken Maginnis:] Furthermore, we are in favour of what you have proposed. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: I too wish to express sympathy to the SDLP, and in particular to Mr McGrady. I am certain that everyone will endorse the remarks of Dr Paisley. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Hugh Smyth:] However, Mr Chairman, I am not quite to [sic] keen to endorse your earlier remarks or what Mr Maginnis said. Sometimes I wonder what we are doing here. At last week's meeting of the Forum it was decided, after a vote, that the Rules... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Dr Alderdice:] With regard to the business for today, we are happy with your proposal, Mr Chairman. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Dr Alderdice: I wish to express our sympathy to Mr McGrady and his family. He is a very distinguished politician, and we missed him at the talks this week. We ask our Colleagues in the SDLP to convey our condolences. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Cedric Wilson: I should like to extend the sympathy of the United Kingdom Unionist Party representatives in the Forum to Mr McGrady and his family on the sad death of his brother. Mr McMichael: I wish to endorse the sentiments expressed by other... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I shall certainly bear that in mind and talk to the Secretary of State. But I doubt whether, in the meantime, the Rules Committee will want to do other than clear its thoughts and recall how it arrived at the Rules that were recommended.... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I thought that we were going to look at the draft Rules that have been agreed. The Committee was not able to finish the report, but we must not be held up. Let us take the Rules that it has agreed and get them under our belts, and... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
FORUM: RULES OF PROCEDURE Mr Alban Maginness: I want to associate myself with the remarks of Mr Hugh Smyth in relation to the proposal this morning. If draft Rules have been agreed by the Committee it seems a little academic for the Forum to explore... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Procedure for Members to Speak According to a List Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Call to Order Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was called to order at 10.03 am (Mr J R Gorman in the Chair). Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Congratulations to Broughshane for Nations in Bloom Award Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Jim Rodgers: I had the pleasure of being in Bedford on Wednesday evening as chairman of Belfast City Council's parks and amenities subcommittee, and it was tremendous to see the reception that the people from Broughshane got. We had people there... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Several Members rose. The Chairman: If you don't mind, we will get on. We have dealt very well with Broughshane. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Update on Committees Friday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
Motion on Health Care Wednesday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
Mr Coulter: I beg to move: [...] Wednesday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
Motion on Boycotting Thursday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
Motion on Disability Thursday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
The Chairman: Yesterday the Business Committee decided to recommend a DUP motion on the disabled as the business for next Friday. Thursday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Editors' note: The motion was put forward by the Business Committee for debate at the Forum Meeting on 6 September 1996.] Thursday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
Motion on BSE Thursday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Editors' note: The motion was put forward by the Business Committee for debate at the Forum Meeting on 13 September 1996.] Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Motion on Boycotting Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Tom Robinson: In the many years I have been involved in politics this is the first time I have ever been invited in the middle of a speech to go for lunch. Any attempt by Republican activists to spread the boycott policy will simply lead to a... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Motion on BSE Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Robert John White:] There is an immediate need for definite Government action to get the farmer and the community out of this crisis. I support the motion and the proposed amendment. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Amendment made: Leave out the last paragraph, and add "Furthermore, the Forum urges the Minister responsible for agriculture, Baroness Denton, and the Secretary of State for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Douglas Hogg, to honour their commitment to... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Motion on Boycotting: Create a Committee on Boycotts Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: We must face up to this situation. I read in the 'Irish News' that Mr Mallon calls the boycott an ugly manifestation of sectarian triumphalism. He goes on to say "I strongly urge the Nationalist community not to take their... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Motion on BSE: Minister Commitments Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Question, as amended, put and agreed to. [...] Friday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
Motion on Housing Policy Review Thursday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
HOUSING POLICY REVIEW Mr Neeson: I beg to move the following motion: Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr David Campbell: I commend Mr Dodds for his eloquent and convincing presentation. As he knows, I have been an admirer of his work, not only in the field of promoting our agriculture industry but in other fields also, for many years, and I am aware of... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Gaston: I am sure that many people not directly involved in farming find it hard to understand the full implications of the BSE crisis and what it is doing to the agricultural economy. Those who sell feed, fertilizers, tractors and machinery, as... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Shannon: I have mentioned the knock-on effects with regard to farm machinery, buildings, and so on. I know a farmer from Ballygowan who had the champion prize bull at Balmoral this year. He sells two or three bulls every year, and normally this is... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was called to order at 10.05 am (Mr J R Gorman in the Chair). Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Security Situation in Drumcree Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Consult the Business Committee and Postpone Meeting Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Suspension of Meeting For Party Discussions Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr King: I shall not dwell on the facts and figures or the counter calculations that this most European of Euro-fiascos has dealt us. There are people in this Chamber better qualified than I to do so. I want simply to ask why family farms in the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Robert John White: It has all been said by Mr Calvert and other Members, but there are one or two things that I would like to say in support of the motion and the proposed amendment. This is not really the Government's fault — at least, not directly... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was suspended at 11.25 am and resumed at 12.05 pm. Monday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
Meeting on Friday 19th July Monday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
The Chairman: The Business Committee, concerned about the education question, has decided that there will be a meeting on Friday 19 July, when priority will be given to that issue. Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Agenda Item: Business Committee Decision Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Adjournment of Meeting Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: A Member from each of the parties will now be given an opportunity to put forward his or her party's view in relation to Drumcree. I ask all Members to be as measured as possible in what they say and to be concise. Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev William McCrea: We have listened with interest to this debate. I trust that the farming industry will find some encouragement in the fact that so many people, from different backgrounds, have expressed unanimous support for Ulster beef. The crisis... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Announcements To Be Made Three Minutes Before Resumption of Forum Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: You are suggesting that I call a meeting of the Business Committee? Mr Taylor: That is the procedure. Rev Dr Ian Paisley: Are we going to have a discussion on this subject as an Adjournment debate? There are some matters that need to be... Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Extension of Sitting Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: We recognized that the larger parties would have two speakers each. That would take in Mr Ken Maginnis and a member of the SDLP. The Chairman: Alliance would like another speaker? A Member: No. Monday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
Consideration of Motion to Adjourn Forum in Light of Security Situation in Drumcree Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Media To Turn Off Cameras During Two Minutes Reflection. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
It was so decided. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Admittance to Chamber to be Suspended During Two Minutes Reflection Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Yes, but I am sure you will agree that we have a slightly different situation today. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Members observed two minutes' silence. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Report from the Committee on Education Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
10.30 am The Chairman: Thank you, Mr Gibson. That is good to hear. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was called to order at 10.05 am (Mr J R Gorman in the Chair). Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I have been chairing the Business Committee meeting. We are pretty time-limited in the work we do, and we do not want to waste time. It is important that I start promptly and that people coming to meetings be on time. Rev Dr Ian Paisley:... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Forum Business: Quicken Pace Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Several Members: No. Dr Ian Paisley: No way. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I am sorry, but that is the way I am going to treat this matter. All of the Secretary of State's Rules will run until we get agreement. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
30 Minute Suspension of the Meeting Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Notice of Motion to Discuss Appointment of a Permanent Chairman in the Next Meeting Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was called to order at 2.10 pm (Mr J R Gorman in the Chair). Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
3.00 pm Mr Ken Maginnis: I referred earlier today, and will refer again, to the whole question of civil rights as expounded 30 years ago. At that time there were many who supported the whole concept of civil rights and had no difficulty with it, but... Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I am sure we could debate this at great length, but we have a motion in front of us. Question put and agreed to. Adjourned accordingly at 3.20 pm. Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Two Minutes Reflection Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Cedric Wilson: I support that proposal and Dr Paisley's comments on the manner in which this meeting commenced. I noted in the Business Committee this morning that you, Sir, had decided to adopt a different approach. I cautioned you privately... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Trimble: Obviously Dr Paisley is not aware that during the course of last week I had a discussion with two leading members of his party — representatives at the talks in Castle Buildings. They may not have informed Dr Paisley of that consultation,... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Trevor Kirkland: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. When are we going to get back to the suggestion made by Mr McCartney half an hour ago? The Chairman: I have forgotten what it was. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was called to order at 10.05 am (Mr J R Gorman in the Chair). The Chairman: We do not have a very large attendance, but I am sure that there will be apologies as there are other matters going on. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Ken Maginnis:] I should like to allude first to what Mr Alban Maginness has said. I understood that in order to assist the Rules Committee the Forum would look at and comment upon the draft Rules between 1 and 11 which have been agreed among all... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Ms Sagar. Rev William McCrea: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. Mr Peter Robinson: Am I not being called now? Rev William McCrea: Is Mr Robinson to be allowed to speak, or do you have a completely blind eye, Mr Chairman? The Chairman:... Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Second Draft of Amended Rules of Procedure Tuesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Amendment to Title of Item 4 Tuesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
The Chairman: We have improved the nomenclature here, thanks to Ms Sagar, who led us very well. We have a better title now. Tuesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: This version of the draft Amended Rules of Procedure was referred to Forum.] Tuesday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Second Draft of Amended Rules of Procedure Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] As to my position as interim Chairman, I should say that unless someone wishes to put forward the name of a proposed permanent Chairman — a motion would have to be passed by a 75% vote, and it would also require that the individual... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
FORUM: CHAIRMANSHIP Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I understand that you, Sir, are the person the Official Unionists want to be the permanent Chairman of this body. In order that we may move ahead, the Official Unionists should officially put you forward now,... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Trimble: As you pointed out this morning, Sir, you are, under the Secretary of State's appointment, the Chairman of this Forum until it elects a Chairman by a majority of 75% of those present and voting. When this matter was discussed last week, it... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Rev Dr Ian Paisley:] I also heard from our representative on the Committee that you had said you would take no more points of order. If that is how we are going to conduct our meetings, it is useless for us to be here. You have to take points of... Friday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
Advertisement Seeking Views from the Public Wednesday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
[The Chairman:] Members have received copies of a revised draft advertisement, which the Business Committee feels should be placed in the press as soon as possible, seeking additional views from the public, to supplement the areas that we think the... Wednesday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Editors' Note: The meeting was called to order.] Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Advertisement Seeking Views from the Public Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
It was so decided. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Resumption of Debate on Education Administration Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Extension of Debate on Current Situation in Northern Ireland by 15 minutes. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
It was so decided. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Parties to Nominate Spokespeople Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
11.15 am Mr Trimble: It is only right that the Forum should have this brief debate on recent events in Northern Ireland. It had such a debate on Monday 8 July, but the circumstances since then justify a return to the topic. This is an opportunity for... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Trimble: I hear "Five minutes". That is news to me, but I shall curtail my comments accordingly. Friday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Editors' Note: The Chairman reported the decisions of the Business Committee to the Forum.] Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Debate on Current Situation in Northern Ireland Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Trimble:] What my Friend has referred to is certainly one of the unusual factors in this situation, as is the number of visits people were paying to Maryfield beforehand. One thing that I find very disappointing in the circumstances is the... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McCartney: Let me say at the outset that the attempts to vilify the pro-Union leadership for the part that they allegedly played at Drumcree are totally without foundation. I share the view, which has been expressed here today, that had it not been... Friday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
Mechanics for Committees Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Rev Dr Ian Paisley:] What needs to be said first of all is that what happened in recent weeks was a result of the Government's handling of the situation over a number of years. We have heard much about consensus, but the Unionist population have not... Friday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Editors' Note: The Chairman reported the decisions of the Business Committee to the Forum.] Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mechanics for Committees Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman to Clarify the Status of Certain Members Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I have received no such intimation. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Accept the Business Committee Recommendations and Move to the Education Debate Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: We are talking about a delay between now and Tuesday, when we shall have the next Business Committee meeting. Mr Nesbitt: We should be clear that the advertisement is proceeding without the word "agriculture" or any related expression. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Resumption of Debate on Education Motion (5 July 1996) Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr McCartney:] Let me deal briefly with the suggestion that the Orange Order, by its presence at Drumcree in protest, weakened what has been described as one of the binding forces of the Union by putting aside the rule of law. It should be borne in... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Curran: I should like, first, publicly to extend the condolences of the Labour Coalition to Sarah McGoldrick and Treasa McShane and their children for the great sorrow that they must be feeling at this time. We share their sorrow, as we share the... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Editors' Note: The debate on education was resumed and Hussey continued his speech as agreed by the Chairman on the 5 July 1996.] Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Adopt the Motion on Education Without a Vote Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Question, as amended, put and agreed to. Resolved: "That in the light of the recent decision by the Minister responsible for education, the Forum invites submissions from education and library boards and other interested parties on the contribution... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms McWilliams: I stand again to say that the Women's Coalition represents an inclusive approach to the politics of Northern Ireland. Inclusiveness involves respecting the views of Nationalists and Unionists. This morning I heard some people referring... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Meeting Adjournment Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was adjourned at 3.30 pm. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: Some weeks ago, after the Manchester bombing, I stood here and condemned it. I asked what £100 million could have done for Northern Ireland. Mrs Iris Robinson: The figure is £500 million. Mr Hugh Smyth: It was £100 million then. I... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Poots: This province has just come through a very difficult week. Indeed, in my adult life, I have never seen such violence as has taken place. Thousands of petrol bombs have been thrown, and thousands of plastic bullets have had to be fired to... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Letter from the Secretary of State Concerning the Rules of Procedure Agreed by the Forum Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McMichael: I do not think that any of us would want to have visited upon us the type of violence which took place in the last two weeks. It is very unfortunate that we find ourselves today in a situation that has deteriorated to such a point.... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Postponement of Item 2 on the Agenda Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman to Rule that Proposals Cannot Be Made on Foot of a Point of Order Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: That K. Maginnis' Proposals Were Not Out Of Order Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was suspended at 2.25pm and resumed at 3.15pm. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: The Matter of the Chair be Deferred For One Week Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Brewster: A fortnight ago this body discussed education policy in Northern Ireland. While, in one sense, it was not a particularly enlightening debate, it was certainly interesting to see everyone agreeing on the lack of democratic accountability... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Procedural Arrangements for Choice of Chairman Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
It was so decided. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Extension of Meeting to 5.00pm Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: What is the opinion generally? Ms Brid Rodgers: It seems to me that the spirit of the provision that the balance of the parties should be reflected requires our having balance as between the communities. Thus, if there is to be an extra... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Peter Robinson: I am delighted to follow what I think was a very thoughtful and useful contribution from Mr Brewster. I believe that it was Mr McMichael who indicated that the parades themselves were not the central issue in the tensions and events... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: We shall have Rev Trevor Kirkland, followed by Mr David Campbell, and then we will go back to Mr Ian Paisley. Are there some others? Rev Dr Ian Paisley: Mr Robinson [sic.]. The Chairman: Mrs Robinson. We cannot have everyone. Whom will... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Suggestion the Chairman take Members Names in Order Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: That is true. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Chairman Not Entitled to Vote as Ex-officio Member of the Committee Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Suggestion the Chairman Joins the Rules Committee as Ex-Officio Member Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms McWilliams: Secondly, the Rule says "so far as is practicable". I have not heard very many pragmatic things being moved this afternoon. I should like to support Mr McGrady's proposal that, as the Forum is currently made up of nine parties, each... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Foster: This has been a very bad time for our province. I put it down to agitation by Republicans, who seek to make territorial gain by whatever means they can. At this time of tension in Northern Ireland, I am alarmed and dismayed that politicians... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McGrady: Are you refusing my procedural motion, which would have the effect of allowing no further debate? You either accept it or reject it. The Chairman: That is exactly what I am proceeding to do. There are only five minutes left, as somebody... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Suggestion the Chairman Make a Decision on the Procedural Motion Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McGrady: But this is procedural. The Chairman: I adopt the procedural point. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
5.00 pm Mr Peter Robinson: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. Did I hear you earlier give a ruling that it was 10 plus yourself? The Chairman: Yes. Mr Peter Robinson: If that is a ruling is the proposal that has been made in order? The Chairman:... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I am sorry for stopping Mr Robinson. Mr Tom Robinson: I am grateful. I shall be as brief as possible. I want to pay tribute to my own Leader, David Trimble, other Unionist leaders, church leaders and anyone else who helped to... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr David Campbell: I attempted, during her speech, to provide Ms McWilliams with some information, which she declined to accept. I am sorry about that. I am sorrier yet that she has chosen to speak but not to remain and listen. I will provide that... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Clarification of Method of Decision on Establishment of Rules Committee Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Carrick: As one who lives within the parish of Drumcree, and as a councillor for the area, I hope I can make a contribution based upon local knowledge. The whole issue of prohibiting and re-routeing traditional parades is, of course, another weapon... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mrs I Robinson: I wish to draw attention to Brid Rodgers's comments during the Drumcree stand-off. On television, hands spread out and looking bewildered, she said "The greater force won." It did not dawn on her that it had been the greater force of... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I am stuck with what I have said. I think that I should go ahead and try to end the first day of the Forum with a decision on something. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Motion to Establish the Rules Committee With A Membership of 10 With The Power to Invite Further Persons To Attend Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was suspended at 11.12 am and resumed at 12.05 pm. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Add Establishment of Business Committee to Item 5 Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I do not think that "Further to the point of order" enables anyone to make a proposal. The Member found fault with me for raising as a point of order something that was absolutely in order. I asked you, Sir, for a ruling as to... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Several Members: Agreed. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: If Members still want me as their interim Chairman, I have been able to reorganize myself to be here next Friday. Is 10 o'clock suitable? Several Members: Agreed. Mr Ken Maginnis: May we return to this point after lunch? The Chairman:... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Nesbitt: I did not intend to speak in this debate, but I shall say a few words. We have heard much these past two weeks about the annoyance and the concern of the Nationalist community. I speak simply as a Unionist. I am not a member of any... Friday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
Amendment to the Advertisement Seeking Views from the Public Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Amendment to the Advertisement Seeking Views from the Public Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was suspended at 12.46 pm and resumed at 1.35 pm. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] I think that it would be appropriate to give parties an opportunity to comment, though I do not think we need a major debate. We posted the suggested Rules to you all on Wednesday evening, but I am sure a number of you have not received... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Trimble: I wish to speak very briefly in support of what I think was the essence of the point made, first, by Ms Rodgers and then by Mr McCartney, Ms Bell and Mr Maginness. The best thing would be for the Rules Committee to finalize its... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Dodds:] Referring to the comments that were made earlier by Mr Maginness, in which he indicated that this should be a matter not for the Forum but for the Rules Committee — [Interruption]. He did say that, despite the fact that Mr Durkan is shaking... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
1.00 pm Rev Trevor Kirkland: The present situation has been variously described both here and outside this body. It has been called everything from a "a blip on the screen of the peace process" to "looking into the abyss". It has been a major... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Add Agriculture as a Fourth Item Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Draft Rules to Return to the Rules Committee for Consultation with Parties Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] May I take you back for a moment. The Rules Committee has met three times this week. It has done a pretty good job, and its members have been extremely hard-working, tolerant, informative and co-operative. Today we have heard some very... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rules Committee Members Bring Amendments from their Parties to Meetings Friday June 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Editors' Note: The Business Committee met during the suspension of the Forum between 11.12 am and 12.05 pm. Since we do not have the minutes of debate we do not know what was discussed. However, we can infer from the morning's debates in Forum that it... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
First Business Committee Report Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Calvert: This is my first time to address the Forum, and I am thankful for the opportunity to participate in this very important debate. I am proud to be a member of the Loyal Orange Order, the Black Institution and the Apprentice Boys. With regard... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I support what my Friend has said. This is a very serious matter. Some of us are engaged in it up to the neck and over the head — if I may use that expression. It is becoming more grave because it is impossible to export the skins... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I have called Mr Maginnis. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Party Spokesperson Should Be Given an Opportunity to Reply to an Attack Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: No. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: Oh yes, he was. Mr Maginnis had already spoken, and Mr Robinson had not. I am not happy about the way the list is drawn up. I am going to send my Whip right up to the Table to put our list before you. The same thing happened last... Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Gender Inclusive Language Tuesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
The Chairman: The words "himself to" have been deleted. Tuesday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Issue of Agriculture to be Discussed at Next Business Committee Meeting Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Nesbitt: I mentioned at the Business Committee something on which I would like to say a few words. The Chairman: Is it relevant to this matter? Mr Nesbitt: I wish to refer to the absence of certain Members from this debate. The SDLP said that they... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Proposal from Magginis Not In Keeping with Rules. Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 2(2): Addition of 'between the traditions' Tuesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 2(2): Addition of 'among the traditions' Tuesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Mr Peter Robinson: Perhaps someone from the Rules Committee could tell us how the communities issue has arisen again. Was that not resolved within the Committee? Mr Ken Maginnis: My recollection is that the issue was parked and that the SDLP was to... Tuesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Mr Peter Robinson: Perhaps someone from the Rules Committee could tell us how the communities issue has arisen again. Was that not resolved within the Committee? Mr Ken Maginnis: My recollection is that the issue was parked and that the SDLP was to... Tuesday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev William McCrea: Further to that point of order, Mr Chairman. The Government have tried for a long time to rig democracy in Northern Ireland. It is true that they have tried to get certain answers from the people. But the people have not gone the... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: It is nearly 4.30 on the first day of the Northern Ireland Forum, and it seems to me that we have two possibilities. We can extend the numbers by some activity, soon and quickly, if that is possible — and I am in the hands of people who... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Casey: I have sat here restraining myself for the last couple of hours. If there is one thing that we all agree about, it is that the election was peculiar. We did not set the ground rules for the election — they were set by the Government — but we... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I must register, on behalf of all my Members, that this is out of order. It is illegal. I want the Secretary to note that those of us who vote against it are doing so because we believe that you, Mr Chairman, should not put it to... Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 6(1): Two Minute's Silence Tuesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Mr Ken Maginnis: The bit in square brackets has been deleted and replaced by the previous sentence, which says that two minutes' silence shall be observed. Members may wish to spend this time in personal prayer or meditation. Tuesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 7(2): Change of Wording Tuesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 10(4): Change of Wording Tuesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Mr Alban Maginness: We felt that 15 minutes, 10 minutes and 10 minutes would be quite sufficient. Mr Gregory Campbell: Mr Maginness is missing the point. We changed the wording to "up to", which would not necessarily mean the stated length of time. Tuesday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Consolidated Motion on Rules Committee Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Forum divided: Ayes 54; Noes 26. Ayes: Antony Alcock, Thomas Benson, David Brewster, David Browne, Joe Byrne, David Campbell, Hugh Carr, Hugh Casey, James Clarke, Robert Coulter, Malachi Curran, Ivan Davis, Arthur Doherty, Jeffrey Donaldson, Mark... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: We have 54 Ayes and 26 Noes — a 67.5% Aye vote. Mr Peter Robinson: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. May I ask what votes you have under the name White? The Chairman: I have Peter White, who is absent — A Member: Peter Weir. The... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Agenda for Forum 21/06/1996 Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 10(4): Change in Speech Timings Tuesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
The Chairman: Paragraph (4) of draft Rule 10 is parked. Mr Alban Maginnis: With regard to paragraph (4), we are not happy with speech times, which should be reduced. Such a large body should be economical with its time. [Editors' Note: In the Forum... Tuesday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] It would be expecting a lot to ask people to comment fully on this when they have only just heard some suggestions. Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I am sorry, Sir, but I disagree. There are people here who are not on the Committee. There are... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: As a member of the Rules Committee, I should like to draw attention to the confusion about what the SDLP is supposed to have said about documents not leaving the building. There is mix-up somewhere. The Rules Committee did not even... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Ms Bell:] There is just one further matter to which I want to refer. Mr Paisley, talking about papers going out to other areas, said that Mr Maginness had said that he did not want that. My recollection is that he and I said that we did not think it... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Alban Maginness: I am grateful to Mr Smyth, Ms Bell and Mr Wilson for at least attempting to undo the distortions that Mr Paisley Jnr introduced in relation to my contribution to the Rules Committee. At that Committee Mr Paisley attempted, rather... Friday June 1996Committee: Business Committee
Motion to Forum on Education Administration Friday June 1996Committee: Business Committee
Forum to Attend to Michael Ancram's Proposals Regarding Education Administration Friday June 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Editors' Note: The spokesperson will here be used to represent motions tabled on behalf of the party. Note that the Alderdice Record: Records and Achievements of the Forum for Political Dialogue does not list any SDLP members of the Business... Tuesday June 1996Committee: Business Committee
Mrs Brid Rodgers: The agreement at the Business Committee was that the SDLP would make its views known after we had met. Friday June 1996Committee: Business Committee
The Chairman: [...] I forgot that we had discussed this matter briefly at the Business Committee. It was suggested that the plan to reduce the number of education boards from five to three should be given some attention by the Forum. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Trimble:] Now, a proper debate is not a Second Reading. You do not have a Second Reading debate on Rules. What we need is to have the finalized report of the Rules Committee published in good time for any Member to submit amendments and have them... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Dodds: I indicated that I wished to speak after the first or second person — The Chairman: You wrote a letter. Mr Dodds: Yes, because you and your officials seemed to deliberately ignore my indication that I wished to speak. I do not necessarily... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Dodds:] Nobody here wishes to prolong the proceedings for any trivial reason. It is only right that Members of the Forum who are not members of the Rules Committee should have an opportunity to look at these proposals and debate them. What will be... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Farren: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. I returned home last night at midnight and for the first time had sight of the amended Rules. Unlike Mr Robinson, when I drive from Portstewart to Belfast I have to keep my eye on the road, so I had very... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Alban Maginness: On a point of information, Mr Chairman. Mr Dodds: I am not taking a point of information. Mr Alban Maginness: What I did say was — Mr Dodds: I am not taking a point of information. The Chairman: Can you please bring these... Friday June 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Editors' Note: The events of this session are conjectural; although we know the subjects that were discussed and a rough overview of debate, the editors do not have a record of the meeting. Description text is taken from the Forum meeting on 28 June 1996.] Friday June 1996Committee: Business Committee
The Chairman: Mr Nesbitt, may I ask you to act for me in the Business Committee? Friday June 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Editors' Note: The Forum voted to allow the Business Committee to meet during the long lunch recess and the Chairman named Nesbitt to act on his behalf while he attended the Rules Committee meeting. Note that the events of this session are... Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The Rules Committee sat during the Forum recess for lunch between 11.13 am and 2.07 pm. The events of this session are conjectural; although we know the subjects that were discussed and a rough overview of debate, the editors do not... Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The spokesperson will here be used to represent motions tabled on behalf of the party.] Wednesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The spokesperson will here be used to represent motions tabled on behalf of the party.] Wednesday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Eric Smyth: I do not think that it is right for any Committee to make my decision. I was elected by the people to come here and speak on their behalf. Mr Alban Maginness knows well that representatives of every party debate matters at council... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: Yes. I would like your direction, Sir, on the point to which Mr Weir has drawn attention. Something that you said to Mr McGrady last week is recorded in Hansard. A Member: Hansard? Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: Sorry — the Forum Record of... Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
The Chairman: During the week we had three meetings of the Rules Committee, including one this morning. I do not want to sound sentimental about this or to suggest that all is sweetness and light all the time, but there were nine people present at each... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Trimble: Further to that point of order, Mr Chairman. I am somewhat surprised at the references to a list, as if the Chairman were bound to follow automatically the order in which people indicate a desire to speak. That, as Dr Paisley knows, is not... Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The spokesperson will here be used to represent motions tabled on behalf of the party.] Wednesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The spokesperson will here be used to represent motions tabled on behalf of the party.] Wednesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The spokesperson will here be used to represent motions tabled on behalf of the party.] Wednesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The spokesperson will here be used to represent motions tabled on behalf of the party.] Wednesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The spokesperson will here be used to represent motions tabled on behalf of the party.] Wednesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The spokesperson will here be used to represent motions tabled on behalf of the party.] Wednesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The spokesperson will here be used to represent motions tabled on behalf of the party.] Wednesday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Draft Rules of Procedure [as Amended in the Forum] Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Park Rule A(1) to Consult Legislation Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Editors' Note: The decision to park A(1) was implicitly agreed as the Forum turns to consider A(2).] Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Paragraph (2) of draft Rule A agreed to. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Gender Inclusive Language: Removal of 'himself' Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: The words "himself to" have been deleted. [Editors' Note: We have represented the amendment as dropped rather than rejected to reflect that the Chairman did not reject Stoker's amendment but rather indicated that such a change had... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 1 - Election of Chairperson Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 1(2): Delete "their" and Insert "its" Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Amendment made: In paragraph (2), line 4, delete "their" and insert "its". Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Draft Rule 1, as amended, agreed to. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 2 - Establishment Of A Rules Committee Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Peter Robinson: Perhaps someone from the Rules Committee could tell us how the communities issue has arisen again. Was that not resolved within the Committee? Mr Ken Maginnis: My recollection is that the issue was parked and that the SDLP was to... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: This, of course, will be taken next Tuesday and given priority for discussion. Mr Alban Maginnis: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I thought that we had dealt with part of that. Rev William McCrea: I wonder whether agreeing means anything. I thought we had agreed draft Rule 2, paragraphs (4), (5) and (6). Mr Ken Maginnis: We must avoid deep water. Subsequent... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Park Draft Rule 3 Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: You are quite right. That one is for discussion. I am sure that under Mr Smyth's able chairmanship on Tuesday all these matters will be resolved. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 4 - Deputy Chairpersons Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: We have improved the nomenclature here, thanks to Ms Sagar, who led us very well. We have a better title now. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Draft Rule 4 agreed to. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Draft Rule 5 agreed to. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Hearing Difficulties of Members Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I have adjusted my microphone. Is that better now? Several Members: Yes. The Chairman: No one has ever before complained about my voice not being loud enough. But we are doing all sorts of new things. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Dr Alderdice: I should like to refer to draft Rule 2(3). When this matter first arose, there was some dispute as to what "reflects the balance of parties" might mean. We have a Committee, and it seems to be functioning very well. I have no... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rules Committee To Review Draft Rule 2 with Forum Points in Mind Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Very good. It was so decided. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 3 - General Rule For The Conduct Of Business Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Peter Robinson: What is the purpose of the brackets in paragraph (1)? The Chairman: They indicate the previous words. [Editors' Note: The square brackets that P. Robinson was querying are not the brackets modelled here in the document text which... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: My recollection is that this portion of the draft Rule was also parked. The reference here is to one minute. Several Members: No. Mr Hugh Smyth: It refers to one minute, and Mr Maginnis is — The Chairman: I think that you are looking... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Ken Maginnis: The bit in square brackets has been deleted and replaced by the previous sentence, which says that two minutes' silence shall be observed. Members may wish to spend this time in personal prayer or meditation. The Chairman: That is... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Paragraphs (1), (2), (3), (5) and (6) of draft Rule 6 agreed to. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Paragraphs (1), (2), (3), (5) and (6) of draft Rule 6 agreed to. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Paragraphs (1), (2), (3), (5) and (6) of draft Rule 6 agreed to. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Paragraphs (1), (2), (3), (5) and (6) of draft Rule 6 agreed to. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Paragraphs (1), (2), (3), (5) and (6) of draft Rule 6 agreed to. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Paragraph (4)? Mr Ken Maginnis: It was parked. [Editors' Note: The editors have chosen to exclude paragraph (4) from debate as K. Maginnis' comment implied that it was parked in the Rules Committee prior to this discussion.] Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Confirmation of Status of Paragraphs Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: That is a very good suggestion. [Interruption] Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Dodds: Sometimes we do not hear too clearly. Mr Ken Maginnis: And sometimes you choose not to hear. The Chairman: Certainly draft 6(4) was parked. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Alban Maginness: We were concerned about the vote that would be necessary in order to have meetings in other parts of Northern Ireland — paragraph (6). There was no clarity on that issue. It could be construed as a business motion or as something... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 7(2): Paraphrase of Wording Suggested by Rules Committee Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 7(2): Change "member" to "place" Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Editors' Note: Although the amendment was not voted on, the Forum members continue to use this wording in debate and it appears in the agreed version. The editors have thus represented this as being adopted.] Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Dodds: Should it not be "to at least one place"? Mr Ken Maginnis: We also decided that the parties entitled to more than one place should not be precluded from having those places. Mr Dodds: It is at least one. Mr Ken Maginnis: Yes, at least... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Peter Robinson: If "balance of parties" means more than the range of parties, and if we are clear that the reference in the earlier draft Rule to the balance of parties means reflection of the strength of parties, I am content with both of them. But... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 7(2): Insertion of "at least" Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Is everybody happy with that? Several Members: Agreed. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 7(2): Small Amendments to Bring it into Line with Rules Committee Wording. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: Well done, Mr Chairman. Rev Dr Ian Paisley: Well done. This is what we voted on. The Chairman: That was a very nice compliment. I am very grateful. Mr Jim Rodgers: Or words to that effect. The Chairman: Thank you, Mr Rodgers. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Amendment Made: In paragraph (2) delete from "the balance of parties" to the end and insert "there is a fair reflection of the parties participating in the Forum, providing that each party is entitled to at least one place." Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Paragraphs (2), as amended, (3), (4), (5), (6) and (7) of Draft Rule 7 agreed to. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Gregory Campbell: Paragraph (2) of this draft Rule was parked. The Chairman: Yes. It was not a terribly fraught matter; we just wanted to make sure that the procedure suited everybody. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Paragraphs (1), (3), (4) and (5) of Draft Rule 8 agreed to. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Paragraphs (1), (3), (4) and (5) of Draft Rule 8 agreed to. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Paragraphs (1), (3), (4) and (5) of Draft Rule 8 agreed to. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 9 - Amendments Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Draft Rule 9 agreed to. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 10 - Speeches in the Forum Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Paragraph (4) of draft Rule 10 is parked. Mr Alban Maginnis: With regard to paragraph (4), we are not happy with speech times, which should be reduced. Such a large body should be economical with its time. The Chairman: I am all for... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 10(4): SDLP Amendment to Speech Times Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Gregory Campbell: Mr Maginness is missing the point. We changed the wording to "up to", which would not necessarily mean the stated length of time. Mr Alban Maginness: That would require self-discipline — something that has not been evident to... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: Why are we debating this when it was parked? 11.00 am The Chairman: The view seems to be that it was not actually parked. The word "parked", as I am sure everybody understands simply means that there is not unanimity, which is what we... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 10(4): DUP Amendment to Speech Times Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Amendment made: In paragraph (4), delete "30 minutes", "20 minutes" and "15 minutes" and insert, respectively, "20 minutes", "15 minutes" and "10 minutes". Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Editors' Note: When the Forum voted in favour of the DUP compromise the SDLP proposal was implicitly rejected.] Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Now we are making real progress. Draft Rule 10, as amended, agreed to. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 11 - Order in the Forum Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: This draft Rule was not agreed. Paragraphs (1) and (2) were parked. That is as far as we got. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: May I congratulate Mr Smyth and the SDLP on overcoming their original difficulty, which led to the confusion at the beginning of this debate. The Chairman: Thank you, Mr Paisley. We have gone as far as we can for the moment. Draft... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Meeting of the Rules Committee During Lunch Until 1:00 PM Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Is that agreeable to everybody? Several Members: Agreed. Ms Brid Rodgers: I did not hear what was said. The Chairman: Dr Paisley is suggesting that we adjourn for a couple of hours and come back for a discussion on the Rules Committee material. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Party Leaders Join Rules Committee Meeting Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Several Members: Never. The Chairman: I have the impression that that suggestion was not greeted with unanimity. Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I am quite confident that the people we have on the Rules Committee can answer for the party. We have gone over these... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Motion to Forum on Education Administration Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Motion Regarding Education Boards Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Thank you, Dr Paisley. I forgot that we had discussed this matter briefly at the Business Committee. It was suggested that the plan to reduce the number of education boards from five to three should be given some attention by the Forum. I... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms Brid Rodgers: The agreement at the Business Committee was that the SDLP would make its views known after we had met. I am not saying yea or nay at the moment. We have still to meet and discuss the matter. The Chairman: But at the moment you are... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Meeting of the Rules Committee During Lunch until 2:00PM Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Are you suggesting that we have another meeting of the Rules Committee in the meantime? Mr Peter Robinson: Yes, the Rules Committee should meet immediately after we rise. That was the purpose of the suspension. Have I your attention, Mr... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
SDLP Meeting on Education Issue Before 2:00PM Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Immediate 15-20 Minute Adjournment for the SDLP to Consider the Eduction Issue Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I am certainly as keen as anyone to move forward, and we are making good progress this morning. It is perfectly right for the SDLP to have some time to consider its position on this matter. Would 15 minutes be enough? Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Ken Maginnis: I understand your difficulty, Mr Chairman. You are like the man taking a donkey to market to try to sell it, and being advised of different ways of achieving that objective. If I remember the fable correctly, the donkey and the man... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Suggestion for Schedule of Meetings During the Meeting Suspension Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Is that agreeable to everybody? It was so decided. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Mr Nesbitt, may I ask you to act for me in the Business Committee? Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Third Draft of Amended Rules of Procedure Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 12(1): Plural Changed Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
12. CLOSURE OF DEBATE Amendment made: In paragraph (1), leave out "members," and insert "member,". Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Cedric Wilson: It is becoming increasingly difficult for the smaller parties to meet all their commitments. I would like to make a contribution on the education matter, but I wish to be involved in the Rules Committee. That is true, I am sure, of a... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Farren: I am a little concerned that we are apparently about to discuss a major issue without having adopted Rules of Procedure, one of which deals with the kind of business that we may address. We are pre-empting the adoption of the Rules by moving... Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 13(1): Potential Wording Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Mr Alban Maginness: Although we had a very productive discussion about draft Rule 13(1), we have not yet agreed the precise wording. We are, however, hopeful of reaching consensus. This the [sic] most important aspect of our deliberations on the draft... Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Mr Alban Maginness: Although we had a very productive discussion about draft Rule 13(1), we have not yet agreed the precise wording. We are, however, hopeful of reaching consensus. This the [sic] most important aspect of our deliberations on the draft... Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 13(2): Exclusion of Abstentions from Votes Cast Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Refer Rule 13(2) Amendments to Next Rules Committee Meeting Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Mr Gregory Campbell:] We were to refer this to the Tuesday meeting, in the hope of getting a solution. [Editors' Note: The Record of Debates indicates that there was some disagreement between members of the Rules Committee over whether the amendments... Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 15(2): Change of Wording Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 13(2): Inclusion of Abstentions In Votes Cast Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Refer Rule 13(2) Amendments to Forum for a Vote Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
15. MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS Amendment made: In paragraph (2), leave out "list" and insert "record". Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 16(1): Change of Wording Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
16. VISITORS Amendment made: In paragraph (1), leave out "escort" and insert "supervision". Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 16(2): Insertion of clause Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Amendment made: In paragraph (2), leave out all the words after "other than" and insert "members and officers of the Forum and members of the news media. This will not include any Chairperson who is not an elected member of the Forum." Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 17: Change of Wording Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
17. SUSPENSION OF RULES (later No 18) Amendment made: Leave out "members" and insert "member/s". Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: This version of the draft Amended Rules of Procedure was referred to Forum.] Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was suspended at 11.13 am and resumed at 2.07 pm. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Third Draft of Amended Rules of Procedure Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 12 - Closure of Debate Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 15 - Minutes of Proceedings Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 16 - Visitors Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 17 - Suspension of Rules Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Editors' Note: It is clear from A. Maginness and Campbell's speeches that Rule 13(1) was still under discussion by the Rules Committee.] Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Rule 13(2) was Deferred to Tuesday Rules Committee Meeting Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: It is my fault for having left my notes in my briefcase. It might be better not to start a debate on this issue for the moment. Mr Neeson: I will abide by your ruling, Sir. Rev Dr Ian Paisley: Mr Chairman, can your officials not get... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Outline Rule 14(2) Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Ken Maginnis: Indeed draft Rule 14(1) is acceptable. We were trying to finish draft Rule 14 and have everything reviewed before coming back. We got only to 14(3), so we shall have to consider 14(4) to 14(7) when we meet next Tuesday. Draft Rule... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Alban Maginness: Although we had a very productive discussion about draft Rule 13(1), we have not yet agreed the precise wording. We are, however, hopeful of reaching consensus. This the [sic] most important aspect of our deliberations on the draft... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: Do you not have a suitcase? Mr Ken Maginnis: No. I am better prepared than I thought. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Ken Maginnis:] How is that for improvisation? The Chairman: First-rate. Rev Dr Ian Paisley: Would you like to repeat it, Mr Chairman? The Chairman: Not at all. Are we now agreed? Ms Brid Rodgers: I think there is a grammatical error. Re Dr... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
It was so decided. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: Mr Chairman, you may leave me your briefcase. The Chairman: I might well do just that. Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 14(2): Text Reworked to Reflect Rule 7(2) Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Forum to Decide If Mr Gibson's Motion on Education Administration Should Be Read Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Terms of Motion Must Be Made Known Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Forum Has to Decide Whether to Accept Motion Without Notice Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: As responsible elected representatives we cannot dismiss a motion before we know what it is. In any assembly a notice of motion is taken without debate. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Gibson to Read Out Motion But Not to Speak to It Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I will do that. Please continue, Mr Gibson. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Proposal by Education Minister Michael Ancram Regarding Education Administration Friday June 1996Committee: Business Committee
Motion to Forum on Education Administration Friday June 1996Committee: Business Committee
Proposal by Education Minister Michael Ancram Regarding Education Administration Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Mr Ken Maginnis: With regard to 14(2), we agreed that it would reflect draft Rule 7(2). I do not appear to have the exact wording -- I too may have left this in my briefcase! [...] Draft Rule 14(2) will now read almost exactly as draft Rule... Friday June 1996Committee: Business Committee
Second Suggested Motion to Forum on Education Administration Friday June 1996Committee: Business Committee
Third Motion to Forum on Education Administration Friday June 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Mr Neeson:] The Business Committee agreed unanimously that this should be dealt with as effectively and efficiently as possible. Friday June 1996Committee: Business Committee
Business Committee Report 28/06/1996 Friday June 1996Committee: Business Committee
Placing Marker of Discussion with the Secretary of State Friday June 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Mr Cedric Wilson:] The Business Committee agreed that this matter could be discussed next week and that we could indicate to the Secretary of State that that was the decision of the Forum. Thus we would be placing a marker with the Secretary of State. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Business Committee Report 28/06/1996 Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: We have a suggested motion without notice. Would you like to outline your proposal, Mr Gibson? Mr Gibson: I shall read out the motion of which I am giving notice. In it the Forum asks the Chairman to approach the Secretary of State and,... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Gibson: The motion would be along the following lines: "That this Forum asks the Chairman to approach the Secretary of State and, through him, the Minister responsible for the political process, who is also the Minister for Education, with a view... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Debate on Mr Gibson's Motion to Forum Regarding Education Administration Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms Brid Rodgers: My party's position is that it is not acceptable at the moment. The agreement reached in the Business Committee was that the parties would attempt to devise a consensual motion for debate next Friday. This would allow the Forum to... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms Brid Rodgers: It is now a matter of public knowledge and of record that all the parties in the Forum are concerned about this education matter and about the announcement last Tuesday. That is not what is at issue. My concern and my party's concern... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Nesbitt: As Mr Wilson has indicated, what has been said so far is complementary, not contradictory. My opening words were that I could echo everything Dr Paisley has said. When I chaired that meeting I suggested that the Forum be asked to note the... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Gibson: There have been two suggested motions since the original suggestion. We have already discussed the problem. I am quite content to leave the full debate until this day week, or the next time we meet. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Remaining Business From Business Committee Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: Because one person has objected we cannot have the motion. I regret that. The papers are full of this matter. Parents are chasing public representatives, and other bodies will be making decisions before we do. It would have been... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Nesbitt:] Indeed, Mr Chairman, before lunch you asked the Business Committee to consider this aspect of the matter. We discussed this whole aspect of education as an item of business for today's Forum meeting, and we concluded that the Forum should... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Cedric Wilson: I do not think that the comments made by the SDLP representative and by Dermot Nesbitt of the Ulster Unionist Party are in any way contradictory. In fact, they complement each other. I hope that we can proceed on the basis of Mr... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McBride: Two things are very clear. First, there is a great deal of concern about this issue. Secondly, it would be extremely good if on such a matter we could get a motion that was agreed by everybody. That would take a little while to prepare.... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Gibson:] I should have liked the Forum to make a move on my proposal, as that would have given you, Mr Chairman, an opportunity to approach the Secretary of State and the relevant Minister with a view to having the directive of Tuesday of this week... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Nesbitt: That is the only item we were asked to address. The Chairman: Thank you very much. I have been saved from cutting myself in two, which would make me even worse. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Future Meetings of the Forum Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
2.45 pm Mr Nesbitt: Dr Paisley said that he was not sure if the Committee was thinking of this. Let me reassure him and others that, as you, Mr Chairman, know from our brief discussion last Wednesday, this, as well as the education matter, is a major... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Cedric Wilson: I agree entirely with the comments of Mr Maginnis. The public are very keen to see us getting into some real debate in this Chamber. The closing remark of Senator Mitchell in another body, at Stormont, was that the participants might... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I generally support what Mr Maginnis has said. We have dealt with most of the draft Rules and shall soon have disposed of that business. That being the case, we should start to set up the Committees and get on with the work. If... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McMichael: We share the general desire to see the Forum progressing as quickly as possible and defining the functions and then exercising them. But, in relation to MrMaginnis's suggestion about next Monday, I am a bit concerned that, while there is... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Gibson: I should like to make another suggestion, which might be useful to the Business Committee. I am sure every political party here has in mind issues that it would like to see examined. No doubt we all want to see aspects of various agencies in... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms Brid Rodgers: Some comments have been made about the political parties' deciding what issues we need to discuss and what Committees we need to set up. Our understanding is that this was to be a deliberative Forum which would allow us to take the... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Agreement in Principle to Meeting Next Friday and the Following Monday Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
It was so decided. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I cannot say how much I support the view that we ought to get on. We ought to be seen, as far as we can, to be speaking with one voice, to be representing the people who elected us — some of you anyway [Laughter] — and to be doing our... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Meeting Adjournment Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
During the course of the meeting the following Member signed the Roll: Joseph Gaston. The meeting was adjourned at 2.55 pm. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Editors' Note: We have represented the desire to "place a marker" with the Secretary of State as the report being referred.] Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Fourth Draft of Amended Rules Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The Rules Committee met to reach consensus on "parked" and contentious draft rules. The meeting lasted about three hours and was chaired by H. Smyth. The events of this session are conjectural; although we know the subjects that were... Tuesday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Nesbitt: I do not wish to take away from what has been said so far. I agree with Mr Gibson that the parties should be conveying views. However, we have a Business Committee which is a microcosm of the Forum. At present we may be working slightly... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: May we get back to Dr Paisley's original point about future meetings? Mr Maginnis has suggested that we meet not only on 5 July but also on 8 July. That has not been proposed formally, but if it is a recommendation I endorse it, bearing... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Ken Maginnis: Having made reasonably good progress with the draft Rules, we should be able to bring that business to a conclusion during the coming week. The Business Committee now seems to be getting down to business, and it may be worth thinking... Friday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 3(2): Replacement of 'communities of' to 'various traditions in' Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The Committee had not reached a consensus and the debate was referred to Forum where Alliance then withdrew their objection.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 13(1): Change of Wording Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The Committee had not reached consensus and the debate was referred to Forum where Alliance then withdrew their objection.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: With the adoption of 13(1): Change in Wording the old amendment was dropped by default.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Letter From the Lord Mayor of Manchester on 1 July 1996 Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] I understand that some Members have not received the excellent paper produced by the Secretary and the Assistant Secretary. It sets out, first, those draft Rules which have been agreed by the Committee and by the Forum; secondly, those... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
10.15 am [Mr Cedric Wilson:] The fashion in which you have spoken to Members this morning demands an apology. It is not for you to determine that the Forum will operate under the Rules laid down by the Secretary of State. You are aware that every... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was suspended at 10.16 am and resumed at 10.50 am. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Before we suspend, I would like to hear from Mr Gardiner and Mrs Rodgers. Ms Rodgers: If the DUP requires a suspension because it has not had time to look at the Rules, we are perfectly happy to accept that. Friday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
The Chairman: Mr Nesbitt, you were the acting Chairman of the Business Committee. I do not know if I thanked you for doing a very good job. If not, I do so now. Mr Nesbitt: Your thanks may be a little pre-emptive. I have a little difficulty, in... Friday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rules Committee Report 2 July 1996 Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The Rules Committee Report is posted to all members on 3/07/1996.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rules Committee Report 2/07/1996 Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Discussion on the Rules Agreed by the Rules Committee Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: We are going only to those agreed at the Committee but not yet in the Forum? The Chairman: Correct. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Poots: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. The Chairman: You do not have to say "On a point of order", as Dr Paisley has reminded us. I have already given my views on this. When people stand up to speak, they do not have to use an incantation. Mr... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Circulation of Copies of the Current Draft Rules of Procedure Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Of course. Does anyone else need a copy? Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McKee: It is very hard for people to follow this without a copy. The Chairman: I agree. Rev William McCrea: Some Members may be quite happy to have a suspension for this purpose, but all should be treated exactly the same. Members should receive... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Will we go ahead and hope that there are some quick readers in our midst? Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Editors' Note: The Forum begin to debate the Rules agreed by the Rules Committee.] Friday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 2(2): Replacement of 'communities of' to 'various traditions in' Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: It appears that the Rules Committee dropped the earlier proposed amendments for the wording of Rule 2(2) in favour of the new wording.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: It appears that the Rules Committee dropped the earlier proposed amendments for the wording of Rule 2(2) in favour of the new wording.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Dr Alderdice: In respect of 2(2), I understand that it may have been our representatives who registered concern about the change from "across the communities of Northern Ireland" to "across the various traditions in Northern Ireland". [Editors' Note:... Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The Committee had not reached a consensus and the debate was referred to Forum where Alliance then withdrew their objection.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
New Rule: Rule 17 - News Media Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: It appears that a new draft rule is written and inserted before the current Rule 17 which in turn becomes Rule 18. Note that we do not have the text for Rule 17 - News Media.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Mr Neeson: At the initial meeting of the Committee I expressed some concerns about this draft Rule [Rule 2(7)(a)]. On that occasion 2(7)(a) was used to co-opt three additional members albeit they do not have voting rights. [Editors' Note: Mr Neeson's... Wednesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 2(3): Amendment of Committee Numbers Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Mr Hugh Smyth: That is exactly the point I was trying to make. The purpose of the amendment was to help the smaller parties such as ourselves and Mr McCartney's party. It enables us to send a person to a Committee, accepting that he will not have... Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 3(1): Change of Wording Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The Committee had not reached consensus and the debate was referred to Forum.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 6(4): UUP Change of Wording Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 6(4): UUP Amended Change of Wording Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Mr King:] but in a constructive gesture to those who had problems with that, we moved to the current position: "having regard to the views of", as opposed to "... the wishes of". That is still our view. "Consultation is too wishy-washy, too woolly, to... Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Mr Gallagher: As we said in the Committee, we are not entirely happy with "having regard to the views of". The original contains a form of words which would give the Chair a certain degree of independence. That would not be the case if the wording were... Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The Committee had not reached consensus and the debate was referred to Forum.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Ms Bell:] [W]e had a long and deep discussion about this matter. It will serve no purpose to go back to it. We spent nearly an hour and a half on this one line. [...] Rev Dr Ian Paisley: Why did the Lady not tell us that the real basis of this... Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: As the Committee had not reached consensus and the debate was referred to Forum.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Mr Gregory Campbell: With regard to paragraph (2), the problem revolved around those abstaining. I think it is fair and accurate to say that every party on the Rule Committee, except Alliance, was happy that abstentions should not be counted in... Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: This version of the draft Amended Rules of Procedure was referred to Forum.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Fourth Draft of Amended Rules Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 2(2): Replacement of 'communities of' to 'various traditions in' Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Dr Alderdice:] We withdraw that concern, having consulted about it, and would be happy to accept the proposition if it is agreeable to the rest. [Editors' Note: Since the amendment had previously not reached consensus due to Alliance concern, the... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 3(2): Replacement of 'communities of' to 'various traditions in' Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 13(1): Change of Wording Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Dr Alderdice:] We withdraw that concern, having consulted about it, and would be happy to accept the proposition if it is agreeable to the rest. That could apply to draft Rule 3(2) and draft Rule 13(1) also. The Chairman: That is very... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Dr Alderdice:] We withdraw that concern, having consulted about it, and would be happy to accept the proposition if it is agreeable to the rest. That could apply to draft Rule 3(2) and draft Rule 13(1) also. The Chairman: That is very... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
A. NOMENCLATURE OF FORUM AND DESIGNATION OF MEMBERS Paragraph (1) of draft Rule A agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 2 - Establishment of a Rules Committee Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Amendment made: In paragraph (2), leave out "communities of" and insert "various traditions in". Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Consider Views Relating to Rule 2(2) Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Dr Alderdice: You may recall, Mr Chairman, that I withdrew our concerns about 2(2), 3(2) and 13(1). 11.15 am The Chairman: You are absolutely right. Friday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 2(7): Division of the Rule into (a) and (b) Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: Rule 2(7) has clearly been divided into two subsections and these are voted on separately in Forum.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 2(7)(a) Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 2(7)(b) Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: As the Committee had not reached consensus and the debate was referred to Forum.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The Committee reached consensus.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 14(4): Division of the Rule into (a) and (b) Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: Rule 14(4) has clearly been divided into two subsections and these are voted on separately in Forum.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 14(4)(b) Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 14(4)(a) Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The Committee had not reached consensus and the debate was referred to Forum.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The Committee reached consensus.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 3(2): Amendment Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Paragraphs (1), (2), as amended, (3), (4), (5), (6), (7)(b), (8), and (9) of draft Rule 2 agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
3. GENERAL RULE FOR THE CONDUCT OF BUSINESS Amendment made: In paragraph (2), leave out "communities of" and insert "various traditions in". Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Editors' Note: The Rules Committee hadn't reached consensus on Rule 3(1) and it isn't debated at this point of the Forum. We have represented this by dropping the original proposal and modelling the paragraphs that have consensus from the Rules... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 3(2) and (3) Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Paragraph (2), as amended, and (3) of Draft Rule 3 agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Paragraph (1) of draft Rule 7 agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
11. ORDER IN FORUM [Editors' Note: The Rules Committee hadn't reached consensus on Rule 11(1)(c) and it isn't debated at this point of the Forum. We have represented this by dropping the original proposal and modelling the paragraphs that have... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 11(1)(a), (b), (d), (e) Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
11. ORDER IN FORUM Paragraphs 1(a), (b), (d) and (e) and (2) of draft Rule 11 agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
12. CLOSURE OF DEBATE Draft Rule 12, as amended, agreed to. [Editors' Note: The amendment referred to is that read out by the Chairman in the previous Forum session.] Friday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Editors' Note: The events of this session are conjectural; although we know the subjects that were discussed and a rough overview of debate, the editors do not have a record of the meeting. Description text is taken from the Forum meeting on 5 July... Wednesday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
New Motion on Education Administration Wednesday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Agree to the Education Motion Without Debate Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: We are going to propose an amendment, so the motion will not be consensual. The Chairman: So the situation is not quite as I hoped. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Suspension of Debate at 4 O'Clock to be Resumed on Monday Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
It was so decided. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Withdraw the Word 'Violently' Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McCartney: You can object violently without being violent. Mr Gibson: I am saying that these people objected violently to the discussion. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I see. Friday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
Letter from Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance Representative Wednesday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
The Chairman: I have a letter from the Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance to that effect. Wednesday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Letter from Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance Representative Friday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Editors' Note: Debate is paused until 9.30am on 5 July 1996 to allow the parties to consult on the motion.] Wednesday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
EDUCATION ADMINISTRATION The Chairman: We have made great progress, but there is one more thing that can be done today if we all put our minds to it. We have a consensual motion, would you believe? Do you all know what that is? I didn't, until I heard... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Gibson: Therefore in the west of the province, where a board is to be taken away, the SDLP finds itself in great difficulty. Earlier this week party members had to redeem their position by running to Westminster. I believe that the flag was flying... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
DUP Amendment to Motion on Education Administration Friday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
SDLP Motion on Education Administration Wednesday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
SDLP Motion on Education Administration: First Amendment Wednesday July 1996Committee: The Forum
New Motion on Education Administration Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Gibson: I beg to move: That in the light of the recent decision by the Minister responsible for education, the Forum invites submissions from education and library boards and other interested parties on the contribution of educational services and... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
In view of this feeling, being expressed all over Northern Ireland, and in view of the fact that council after council has supported the ground swell of opinion, the Minister should be asked to put his directive on hold. This is important. I have... Friday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Ms Brid Rodgers:] which we twice agreed to amend. We amended it at the beginning by adding "in view of the Minister's recent decision" Wednesday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
SDLP Motion on Education Administration: Second Amendment Wednesday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Ms Brid Rodgers:] and then we added the last bit. Wednesday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Suspension of Meeting to Consult the Business Committee Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I have made up my mind to do exactly that. I am going to suspend the meeting for one hour. Mr Cedric Wilson: I think that you have my name on your list as the next Member to speak. The Chairman: I am not interested whether your name is... Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was suspended at 10.18 am and resumed at 11.18 am. Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
During the course of the meeting the following Member signed the Roll: May Beattie. Friday June 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Editors' Note: The events of this session are conjectural; although we know the subjects that were discussed and a rough overview of debate, the editors do not have a record of the meeting. Description text is taken from the Forum meeting on 8 July... Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Structure of Timetable Not Representative Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Mr Nesbitt, you were the acting Chairman of the Business Committee. I do not know if I thanked you for doing a very good job. If not, I do so now. Mr Nesbitt: Your thanks may be a little pre-emptive. I have a little difficulty, in... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Does anyone have any worries about the slightly different words that Mr Gibson used? Ms Brid Rodgers: We went in good faith to the Business Committee meeting last Wednesday. We had our own proposal, which we twice agreed to amend. We... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McCartney: I am rising only because I understand that Mr Nesbitt has given way. I am not speaking de novo, as it were, but only with my Friend's permission. It seems to me that all the parties are telling the Minister not to do anything about... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Well, that is the structure as I understand it. We may have some slight differences about it. Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] I thought that you made a helpful contribution in deciding that the debate on the Drumcree matter should be time-limited. That is what I am asking for. Mr Peter Robinson: That is right. The Chairman: I would like the parties to... Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was suspended at 11.25 am and resumed at 12.05 pm. Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
12.45 pm Dr Alderdice: On behalf of my colleagues, I wish to express condolences to the family of the young man who has died — and it looks very much as though he may have been murdered. I understand that there is another young man in hospital, and I... Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev William McCrea: This is a solemn moment in the history of our country. I agree with everything that Mr Donaldson has said. We are in a crisis situation, not of our making, and certainly not of the choosing of either the Loyalist people or the... Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was suspended at 1.00 pm and resumed at 2.00 pm. Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 13(1): Change of Wording Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Paragraph (1), as amended, of draft Rule 13 agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I do not know where the Business Committee gets the authority to decide that a motion cannot be brought to the Forum. It is saying that it will not let us discuss a certain motion, that there will be consensual motion instead. Mr... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
11. ORDER IN FORUM Paragraphs 1(a), (b), (d) and (e) and (2) of draft Rule 11 agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
14. COMMITTEES OF THE FORUM Paragraphs (1), (2), (3), (4)(b), (5), (6) and (7) of draft Rule 14 agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
14. COMMITTEES OF THE FORUM Paragraphs (1), (2), (3), (4)(b), (5), (6) and (7) of draft Rule 14 agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
14. COMMITTEES OF THE FORUM Paragraphs (1), (2), (3), (4)(b), (5), (6) and (7) of draft Rule 14 agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
14. COMMITTEES OF THE FORUM Paragraphs (1), (2), (3), (4)(b), (5), (6) and (7) of draft Rule 14 agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
14. COMMITTEES OF THE FORUM Paragraphs (1), (2), (3), (4)(b), (5), (6) and (7) of draft Rule 14 agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
14. COMMITTEES OF THE FORUM Paragraphs (1), (2), (3), (4)(b), (5), (6) and (7) of draft Rule 14 agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
14. COMMITTEES OF THE FORUM Paragraphs (1), (2), (3), (4)(b), (5), (6) and (7) of draft Rule 14 agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
15. MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS Draft Rule 15, as amended, agreed to. [Editors' Note: The amendment referred to is the one made in the previous session on 28 June 1996.] Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
16. VISITORS Draft Rule 16, as amended, agreed to. [Editors' Note: The amendment referred to is the one made in the previous session on 28 June 1996.] Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
New Rule: Rule 17 - News Media Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Draft Rule 17, agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 18 (Renumbered, previously No 17 - Suspension of Rules) Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Editors' Note: The numbering of the Rules is changed to reflect the addition of a new Rule 17.] Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Draft Rule 18, as amended, agreed to. [Editors' Note: The amendment referred to is the one made in the previous session on 28 June 1996.] Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
New Rule: Rule 19 - Confidence in the Chair Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Chairman To Call Members by Name for Speaking Order Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I will do that. There are two or three people I do not know, and it would be helpful if they were to put up their hands and announce themselves. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McBride: Draft Rule 14, which has been agreed, specifies that Committees are appointed by motion, setting out terms of reference, quorum and composition. It is a complete contradiction if a Committee can change that. Draft Rule 2(7)(a) does not make... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Donaldson: This is my first opportunity to address the Forum. It is an unfortunate occasion on which to do so, for two reasons: the present situation in Portadown — the main reason for this debate — and the unfortunate, unnecessary murder last night... Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms Brid Rodgers: I should like, first, to express my condolences to the family of the man who was murdered in Aghalee last night or in the early hours of this morning — for whatever purpose, as someone has already said. I do not think that murder can... Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Neeson: At the initial meeting of the Committee I expressed some concerns about this draft Rule. On that occasion 2(7)(a) was used to co-opt three additional members, albeit they do not have voting rights. I am concerned at the fact that they became... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Park Rule 2(7)(a) Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Vote to Agree Rule 2(7)(a) Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev William McCrea: Before Mr Neeson made his speech the matter had been agreed. Then you took another statement. Once a matter is agreed, regardless of speeches thereafter, the agreement remains. You cannot park something which has been agreed. The... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: We can either accept that there is some feeling about this or go for a vote on it. It seems to me that the latter is a rather time-consuming process. A Member: That is what we are here for. The Chairman: What do we do in the... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Several Members: No more parking. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Dodds: So that Members may be clear, Mr Chairman, will you please confirm that you are operating under the 75%-majority requirement. The Chairman: It comes under the Act: "A decision on the election or removal" — note "or removal" — "of a... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Several Members: Park it. Mr Hugh Smyth: I am sure that if Mr Alban Maginness were here we would not have to park this provision. I chaired the Rules Committee when it met for about three hours earlier this week. This provision was actually designed... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Park Rule 2(7)(a) and Continue Rules Discussion Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
It was so decided. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 3(1): Change of Wording Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr King: The Ulster Unionist Party feels very strongly that the reference to the 1996 Act is superfluous. The Act is there. It is undeniable, and because the Forum is a creature of statute, everything has to be referred back to it. Rev Dr Ian Paisley:... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
It was so decided. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: There will be some parking tickets after this! The Chairman: Indeed. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] Dr Alderdice having withdrawn his objection to paragraph (2), that paragraph was agreed earlier. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 6(4): UUP Change of Wording Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Gallagher: As we said in Committee, we are not entirely happy with "having regard to the views of". The original contains a form of words which would give the Chair a certain degree of independence. That would not be the case if the wording were... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Durkan: After consultation amongst ourselves, and having regard to the views of others, we withdraw our objection. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 6(4) as Amended Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Paragraph (4), as amended, of draft Rule 6 agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rev Dr Ian Paisley's Letter to the Business Committee Asking for a Rule on Flags Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
New Paragraph: Rule 6(7) Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Rev Dr Ian Paisley:] That has not been agreed, either in the Forum or in the Committee. [Editors' Note: As the Committee had not reached consensus, the debate was referred to Forum.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: The Forum
New Paragraph: Rule 6(7) Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Farren: Given the controversies that are associated with the display of flags and emblems — controversies which I trust we shall not rehearse this morning — and given the overall purpose for which the Forum was established, which is to promote... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: The Chairman Rule that Ms McWilliams Get Silence Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I am about to call a spokesperson from the SDLP. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: The Chairman Make a Ruling Under Rule 11 Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: It certainly is an unsatisfactory word, but I did not hear it. Mr McClelland: It was audible at this side of the Chamber. I am calling your attention to Rule 11 and asking you to make a ruling under it. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I am going to make this ruling: that Ms McWilliams be allowed to finish in silence the few words that she wanted to say. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms McWilliams: The point I was going to make is that if the Forum does settle on a symbol that Members can all agree on, we in the Women's Coalition would be glad to knit it. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Feely: Do Mr Paisley and Mr McCrea agree that, in the interests of parity of esteem, reconciliation and understanding, the symbol of the Nationalist identity — the Tricolour — should fly on this building at the same time as any other flag they may choose? Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I find this disappointing. There was a Forum elsewhere, and I did not hear the SDLP propose that it should have a special logo to send a message to the North of Ireland. [Interruption] The Chairman: Do you want to give way, Dr... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms Brid Rodgers: For the information of the Forum I wish to indicate that the Dublin Forum used a symbol representing peace and reconciliation, in the shape of a dove. It was very effective, and it would be useful for us to agree on a symbol with which... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
12.00 Ms McWilliams: We too have some difficulties about adding this provision to the Rules as they stand. We wondered, indeed, why such a contentious issue was raised at this particular time in Northern Ireland. As has been said, we are here to try... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I remind everybody that time is going on and that to get agreement on this matter, which is proving mildly controversial, we must have a 75% yes. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McClelland: Sir, I have asked you for a ruling under Rule 11. The word "traitor" was called out when Ms McWilliams was speaking. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I am making no such ruling. Please sit down. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McClelland: Why do we have Rules if you are not going to use them? The Chairman: I have asked you to sit down. Will you please do so. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Lunch Break Before Return to Rule 6(7) Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Vote on Rule 6(7) Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms Brid Rodgers: Mr Chairman, you have a procedural motion to put the Question. The Chairman: I am going to put the Question. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. The Chairman: Is this a genuine point of order? Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: This debate originated with an amendment put forward by the SDLP. Are we going to vote first on the amendment and then come to... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Dr Alderdice: I reiterate the point that has been made about the logo used extensively by the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation in Dublin. It is true that it was not used as a flag. If we were operating entirely in our own clearly public building,... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] Let us now consider how to approach this. I am keen to see you all getting a good lunch so that you will feel a little more comfortable with each other. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Stephenson: Can the motion be put to the Forum? Rev Dr Ian Paisley: If other people want to speak in the debate they should be allowed to. Mr Stephenson: We have a procedural motion. The Chairman: The idea of putting the Question now does not... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was suspended at 12.35 pm and resumed at 1.45 pm. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was suspended at 12.35 pm and resumed at 1.45 pm. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Vote to Agree to Dr Paisley's Amendment, Rule 6(7) Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 6(7) Re-Referred to the Rules Committee Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Several Members: No. A Member: It is rejected. Dr McDonnell: What decision are we taking? My understanding is that a draft Rule is rejected unless it commands 75% support. The Chairman: It seems to me that it is rejected today. However, a... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: We were asked a question, and we should answer it. The answer to the Gentleman from the SDLP is "Certainly not" — for the same reason he did not ask for the Union Jack to be flown over the Forum in Dublin. He is pledged to the... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McMichael: You said earlier, Mr Chairman, that perhaps there was too much adversarial discussion. I wonder how you feel now. I want to make clear the position of the Ulster Democratic Party on this issue. It is unfortunate that we are getting into... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: We have not heard from Mr Hugh Carr. [Interruption] I am so sorry: we did. My mistake — you are getting a second bite at this. Mr Carr: I will be pleased to get a second bit, if you allow me. Mr Hugh Smyth: On a point of order, Mr... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Editors' Note: Dr Ian Paisley's proposal replaced the earlier proposal by Ms Brid Rodgers which the editors have represented as dropped.] Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: For better or for worse, I rule that it will go back to the Committee. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
2.00 pm Dr McDonnell: I want to know — and this is a genuine point — what will happen to other motions. Several Members: The same. Dr McDonnell: I am not asking other Members; I am asking you, Mr Chairman. The Chairman: Exactly the same. This is... Friday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 8(2): Change of Wording Tuesday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Eric Smyth: So far as I am concerned, the people who have shown their ignorance against the flag of this country are bitter. The Union Jack is the flag of our country. People gave their lives for it so that we might have the freedom to meet together... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: I welcome the SDLP's recommendation about a logo. It makes good sense to have headed paper, but the more I listen to this debate and hear the reasons for not flying the Union flag, the more determined I am to ensure that it will fly.... Friday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Mr Gregory Campbell: Paragraph (2) of this draft Rule was parked. [Editors' Note: From the context it is apparent that Campbell meant that it was parked in the Rules Committee.] Tuesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: As the Committee had not reached consensus, the debate was referred to Forum.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 8(2): Change of Wording Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 8(2): Change of Wording Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Amendment made: In paragraph (2), leave out "after consultation with" and insert "having regard to the views of". Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 11(1)(c): Inclusion of a Reference to Erskine May Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 11(1)(c) Re-Referred to the Rules Committee Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: Why did the Lady not tell us that the real basis of this argument was objection from the SDLP because Erskine May is a British Parliament textbook? Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: It has already been decided to refer the matter back. That seemed to be the feeling of a majority. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Gallagher: I want to remind everybody that our primary purpose here is to engage in dialogue and to try to reach a greater understanding between our traditions. The SDLP's position concerning the flag on this building should be made quite clear. We... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 13(2): Inclusion of Abstentions In Votes Cast Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Gregory Campbell:] We are quite happy to proceed with a vote, but, given that the matter would be referred back anyway, I do not see much point. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Vote on Amendment to Rule 13(2) Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 13(2) Re-Referred to the Rules Committee Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: We shall do that. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: The position in respect of 14(4)(a) has already been clarified by DrAlderdice. Mr McBride: Draft Rule 14(4)(a) raises the same issue as the matter we voted on earlier. The Chairman: It is agreed. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Forum divided: Ayes 50; Noes 23. Ayes: Antony Alcock, May Beattie, Robert Bolton, David Brewster, David Browne, Cecil Calvert, David Campbell, Gregory Campbell, Mervyn Carrick, James Clarke, Wilson Clyde, Ivan Davis, Nigel Dodds, David Ervine, Sam... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: We might be misled by the use of an Englishman so eminent as Erskine May. People in this province use words that Mr Erskine May never heard. We should guide ourselves as to what is objectionable. The Chairman has to call attention to... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms Bell: I take on board what you say, Mr Chairman, but we had a long and deep discussion about this matter. It will serve no purpose to go back to it. We spent nearly an hour and a half on this one line. Mr Hugh Smyth: As one of those who chaired... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
2.15 pm Mr Hugh Smyth: Some parties' representatives on the Rules Committee are not here today. What some Members will be voting against was agreed by all parties other than Alliance. The Chairman: I think that everybody understands that. Mr Hugh... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 14(4)(a) Re-Referred to the Rules Committee Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: This is correct. So there are four items to go back to the Rules Committee. [Editors' Note: The Chairman is incorrect, there were six items to be reconsidered by the Rules Committee.] Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
2.30 pm We have succeeded in getting 40 provisions agreed today. That is a wonderful effort. You did very well. I think I will go away again. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Paragraph (2), as amended, draft Rule 8 agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Send Rules to the Secretary of State for Approval Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Dr Paisley, do you have a problem about this? Rev Dr Ian Paisley: No, but we are so near the end that I think we should conclude. If we get some Rules passed, there will be those who say "We needn't worry about these". We should... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Matters for the Business Committee to Consider Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Perhaps I could short-circuit this. There is misunderstanding on the part of some people, including myself, about the treatment of abstentions. Am I right in thinking that the idea is to show Ayes and Noes as percentages of the total... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
A Member's name having been called, without response — The Chairman: We will come back to Ms Bell. Several Members: No. The Chairman: You are a very hard lot. The Forum divided: Ayes 6; Noes 70. Ayes: John Alderdice, Seamus Close, Steve McBride,... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Very good. I suppose I have earned that. I shall answer it in just a moment. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Initial Rules of Procedure Used where Final Wording Disputed. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: We should concentrate on finishing the Rules. We should put our shoulders to the wheel and not look back. Otherwise we are not fit to be Members of the Forum. The Chairman: All right. I am beaten again. We shall meet here again on... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Neeson: There is another amendment, and the Forum should make a decision on that today. The Chairman: Does everybody agree that we should go through another vote? Mr King: I am happy to have a vote on the Official Unionist amendment at any time,... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms Sagar: I should like to comment on statements made this morning regarding the Northern Ireland Women's Coalition. As everyone knows, the Northern Ireland Women's Coalition is made up of a cross-section of the two main communities. I happen to be a... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Ms Sagar:] I do not think that our position regarding the flying of the flags was made clear this morning. We want nobody's flag to fly on the Forum. [Interruption] This is not a public building. It is a privately owned building. That is the point we... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Ms Sagar's Speech Out of Order Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: The day started with me being chastised for being too dictatorial. I think I am being too lenient now. Quite a point is being made here. Ms Sagar: I indicated this morning that I wanted to come back to this. Mr Jim Rodgers: Sit down and shut up. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: We have a little time left. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: We really must try to avoid this sort of situation. We are here for dialogue and to get on with each other. If I say things to which Members object, I shall apologize. People ought to be conscious that we do not want adversarial work... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Rodgers Identified as Having Made Objectionable Remark Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Jim Rodgers: I have absolutely no intention of making an apology. For MrNeeson's benefit, let me make it clear that I stand by what I said. The Member was not talking on the subject, as Mr Dodds has pointed out. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McClelland: Twice I have got to my feet since this started — The Chairman: You have had very little luck so far, but you are up now. Mr McClelland: On both occasions, Mr Chairman, I wanted to urge you to stamp some authority in respect of the type... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I did use words which I hope conveyed that. Mr McClelland: The only words that I remember were those telling me to sit down. If you are going to use some other words, will you please start now. 2.45 pm The Chairman: Like "Sit... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Before going any further we ought to remember that life moves on. Representations are made after people's ideas have been sussed out. Who is going to read this? Everybody is at it: the education and library boards — I have heard them... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: DUP Amendment Should Be Debated Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Rev William McCrea:] This is a very important matter of deep concern to the community. We believe that the Forum has a vital role to play in preventing the Government from taking action that would ruin the lives and the future education of our children. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: That is very helpful. Mr Gibson gave a lot of thought to this, and he brought out all the underlying problems. It would be a great shame, if we are so close to consensus, to argue about whose wording should be used. Mr Farren: On a point... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms Brid Rodgers: All those who have spoken so far have made one important point: the end result is going to be the same. The issues are going to be discussed, debated and put on record. We are asking the Minister to have regard to our views. How do we... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Farren: The hiatus arose from a request — from yourself, I think — that we take the amendment straight into the original motion. Having given the kind of consideration that we did, both in the party and in the Business Committee, to the consensual... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I object to the Business Committee's butchering the recommendations of any party. It should allow time for debate. Members will put down motions that we do not agree with, and they will have to be debated. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: The next Member on my list is Mr Hussey. Mr Nesbitt: Mr Chairman. The Chairman: Does Mr Hussey agree to stand down? Mr Hussey: I am waiting to find out what the motion is, because I want to discuss the issue. The Chairman: You have... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Adjournment at 3:45PM With Resumption of Debate on Monday Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Cedric Wilson: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. I thought that one of the things we established early in the proceedings today was that this meeting would continue until four o'clock. The Chairman: I am just suggesting a time-limit. Mr Cedric... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: We will sit until four exactly. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms Bell: Mr Nesbitt covered much of what I intended to say in relation to the South Eastern Education and Library Board, of which I have been a member for the last three years. It was with a certain amount of shock and deja vu that I heard the... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Morrow: May I speak? The Chairman: Is it to do with this motion, or is it to do with education? Mr Morrow: It is to deal with the Business Committee's transactions this morning. When I arrived 60 seconds late I was berated by you, Mr Chairman,... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Morrow:] In relation to the DUP's motion, I asked the Business Committee if it intended to redesign and redraft every motion put before it. I did not get a satisfactory answer. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Chairman Rule Topic of Debate Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Gallagher: I support the motion, as agreed by the Business Committee. Mr Gibson's remarks about the SDLP misrepresented our position last Friday, which was that we would go to the Business Committee to find a motion that all parties in the Forum... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Cedric Wilson: Perhaps I can help to move the process on. I am satisfied that I am speaking to the motion put forward by the Business Committee. I raised the earlier point in order to establish exactly where we were. If, at the end of these... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: You are going back to the point we have already cleared. Mr Cedric Wilson: It is an important point. [Interruption] Rev William McCrea: Mr Chairman, there seems to be a difference in your attitude— The Chairman: I did not call you,... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I now call Mr Wilson, in the hope that he will not use all the remaining 19 minutes. Mr Cedric Wilson: I can assure you that I won't, Mr Chairman. There are a few things that I need to get clear before concurring with the comments of... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] Certainly I am not satisfied with the way things are going in the Forum. It is becoming too adversarial. We are not a parliament. We are here to find some common ground amongst people in this country, to show the world that Ulster... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Editors' Note: The Chairman doesn't make a ruling on B. Rodger's Point of Order and the conversation moves on from the motion on Education to general business.] Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Agenda for Monday Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: We will continue this debate and develop more fully some thoughts of the Business Committee for which we have not had time today. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hussey: Mr Chairman — Rev Dr Ian Paisley: Surely it is in order — Mr Hussey: Is this a point of order? If not, I will not give way. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
All Parties Have Opportunity to Speak Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I do not recall that, but I have been asked to take a note to cover this very point. I intend counting the number of speakers from each party, large or small, as I am very keen that there should be a proportionately larger number of... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Meeting Adjournment Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Permission to Extend Speech Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Will you be here on Monday? Mr Hussey: I certainly will. The Chairman: Then you may finish. The debate stood adjourned. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Cedric Wilson: The United Kingdom Unionist Party concurs entirely with the comments made by the other parties. The attitude of the Minister and the Government is nothing less than we in Northern Ireland have come to expect. In a letter to party... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hussey: I share the dismay being expressed round the Chamber in relation to the proposed changes. To add insult to injury, Ancram has the audacity to declare that the die is cast and that there will be no further consultation on the reorganization... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
FORUM: BUSINESS The Chairman: The agenda for Monday is continuation of the debate on education, future business of the Forum and, if parties so wish, statements by party Leaders. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was adjourned at 4.00 pm. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Order of Speakers Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: To keep everybody happy, and to make sure that everybody has a turn, after Dr Paisley we will have Mr McMichael, if he would like to speak, Mr Smyth, Ms McWilliams, Mr Maginnis and a Member — yet to be notified — from the SDLP. All happy... Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I am glad that today, in this Forum, the elected representatives of the Ulster people can have their say, can express their views, no matter how deeply diverse they may be. Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Opportunity to Speak on Drumcree Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms McWilliams: I seek clarification, Mr Chairman. Is it your intention to call Members in the order we agreed in the Business Committee — a representative of each party? The Chairman: They are coming right now — doing it in reverse. Ms McWilliams: I... Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Paisley's Speech Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: No, I am not giving way to him — in no wise. Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Alban Maginness: Are you finished? Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: Shut up, you. The Chairman: That was uncalled-for. We do not want to hear remarks like "Shut up". Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I said "in no wise". There is nothing wrong with that remark. Ms Brid... Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: There is not a 10-minute rule, but there was a request from the Chair that remarks be kept as concise as possible, and I have read out a list of people who would like to speak. [Editors' Note: The Chairman did not ask Paisley to draw his... Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I will finish in a minute. The Member's own colleague told us after the election in West Belfast that he was fighting Fascists. Now, if he is fighting Fascism, so are we today. We are not going to allow Fascist thugs to dictate to... Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McMichael: I will endeavour to be brief and measured in my remarks. We find ourselves in a very difficult and critical situation, at perhaps a defining point in our history, and it would be inappropriate to further heighten tensions at a time when... Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] I ask all Members to be as measured as possible in what they say and to be concise. Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: There are three documents which require to be put into the record. I shall now read the first one, which indicates who I am and why I am here: "To whom it may concern In pursuance of paragraph 2(1) of schedule 2 to the Northern Ireland... Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: I will be brief because most of the points have already been covered. I agree with Mr McMichael. So far as I am concerned, this really is the crunch. I believe that it is time not only for cool heads but also for true leadership. I hope... Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Location of First Meeting of the Forum - Schedule 2(2)(1) Northern Ireland Act (1996) Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] Next week Mr Hugh Smyth will chair the Rules Committee on my behalf, Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] and on Wednesday the Business Committee will be chaired by Mr Nesbitt. I am very grateful to the two Gentlemen. Friday June 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Editors' Note: Nesbitt was Temporary Chairman only for the week of Gorman's absence, following which he was no longer a member of the Business Committee.] Friday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Editors' Note: The events of this session are conjectural; although we know the subjects that were discussed and a rough overview of debate, the editors do not have a record of the meeting. Description text is taken from the Forum meeting on 19 July 1996.] Wednesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The Rules Committee met to reach consensus on six draft rules that had been referred back to the Committee on the 5 July 1996. Although the Alliance party and SDLP did not attend, the Committee had reached quorum of five members and the... Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Fifth Draft of Amended Rules Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Ms McWilliams:] I should like to draw attention to the last two meetings of the Rules Committee. One was inquorate. Owing to the absence of the Unionists it could not conduct business. Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Ms McWilliams:] I should like to draw attention to the last two meetings of the Rules Committee. One was inquorate. Owing to the absence of the Unionists it could not conduct business. The other was quorate -- we needed only five people -- despite the... Tuesday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms McWilliams: Obviously these are difficult times in Northern Ireland. Once again we find ourselves in a state of high conflict and tension. When the Northern Ireland Women's Coalition went to the elections, we stood on three principles. One was... Monday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: We do not know the date and time for this meeting, only that at some point he Rules Committee met to reach consensus on six draft rules that had been referred back to the Committee on the 5 July 1996. As the Unionists did not attend,... Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 2(7)(a) Re-Referred to the Rules Committee Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 2(7)(a): Change of Wording Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[The Chairman:] The provision has been agreed by the Committee. Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[The Chairman:] The provision has been agreed by the Committee. Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 3(1) Re-Referred to the Rules Committee Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 3(1): Addition of "which shall be final on all questions of procedure and order" Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[The Chairman:] That has been agreed by the Committee. Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[The Chairman:] That has been agreed by the Committee. Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 6(7) Re-Referred to the Rules Committee Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 6(7): Deletion of "on the building" Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Resubmission of Rule 6(7) Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Mr Gregory Campbell:] We were informed that it might not be possible to submit exactly what had failed to reach the required threshold. Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Mr Gregory Campbell:] I think that at that stage Mr Maginnis indicated that, in his opinion, as the issue of the flying of the flag would come up in negotiations on flags and emblems, the matter might not be raised at all. There ensued a discussion... Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 6(7): the Word ""may" be substituted for the word "shall"" Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 6(7): Alternative wordings in square brackets Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Mr Gregory Campbell:] However, that was overruled. Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: McCartney's proposal was accepted by consensus but not unanimously.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 11(1)(c) Re-Referred to the Rules Committee Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 11(1)(c): Addition of "/she" Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
The Chairman: paragraph (1)(c) of draft Rule 11 now provides that if any Member of the Forum "uses objectionable words eg, as defined in Erskine May which he/she refuses to withdraw ..." Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
The Chairman: paragraph (1)(c) of draft Rule 11 now provides that if any Member of the Forum "uses objectionable words eg, as defined in Erskine May which he/she refuses to withdraw ..." Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 13(2) Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 13(2): Change of Wording Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
The Chairman: Paragraph (2) of draft Rule 13, with the Rules Committee's proposed amendment, says "If, in the course of a sitting, the opinion of the Chairperson as to the decision of a questioned is challenged, the Chairperson shall cause a general... Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
The Chairman: Paragraph (2) of draft Rule 13, with the Rules Committee's proposed amendment, says "If, in the course of a sitting, the opinion of the Chairperson as to the decision of a questioned is challenged, the Chairperson shall cause a general... Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 14(4)(a) Re-Referred to the Rules Committee Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The Chairman didn't speak to this rule in the Forum session of 19 July 1996 so the editors have assumed that the draft rule was not further amended and was agreed to by the Rules Committee.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: This version of the draft Amended Rules of Procedure was referred to Forum.] Tuesday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Fifth Draft of Amended Rules Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Consideration of a Rule Proposed on Behalf of the Business Committee Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Paragraph (7)(a) of draft Rule 2 agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Paragraph (1) of draft Rule 3 agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 6(7): Amendment to Restore "shall" Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms McWilliams: We will be saying something on these draft Rules at a later stage. Mr Curran: I too shall be speaking later. The Chairman: We hoped to deal with the Rules one by one. Have you anything to say about this one, Ms McWilliams? Ms... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Vote on Rule 6(7) Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Vote on DUP Amendment to Rule 6(7) Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Peter Robinson:] We have had sufficient discussion on the matter. We are taking up time that could be used for more substantive debate on current issues. I propose that the amendment suggested by us — that "may" be changed to "shall" — be now put... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Amendment made: In paragraph (7), delete "may" and insert "shall". Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Vote on Rule 6(7) as Amended Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Paragraph 1(c) of draft Rule 11 agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Editors' Note: By agreeing on the Rules Committee's amended draft Rule 13(2) the old version was implicitly dropped.] Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 13(2) with the Rules Committee's Proposed Amendment Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Ken Maginnis: It is important for those who were not at the meeting of the Rules Committee to understand the nature of the debate that took place there. Amongst the Unionist element in the Rules Committee there was no objection whatsoever to the... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms McWilliams: The irony is that this Rule came to the Forum and was voted on. At that time the Forum was fairly representative, and it voted against the addition of the provision. [Interruption] The 75% that is required in order for the provision to... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 13(2): Deletion of "stand, state his/her name and party and" Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Amendment made: In paragraph (2), lines 7 and 8, delete "stand, state his/her name and party and" Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Paragraph (2), as amended, of draft Rule 13 agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Paragraph 14(4)(a) Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Paragraph (4)(a) of draft Rule 14 agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
New Paragraph: Rule 10(5) Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Robert John White: If it is said that I may take my breakfast in the morning, I can make up my own mind. It is quite clear. But if it is said that a particular group may fly the flag, who is to decide when? That question has to be answered. If... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Forum divided: Ayes 47 (96%); Noes 2. Ayes: Antony Alcock, May Beattie, Thomas Benson, Robert Bolton, David Brewster, Cecil Calvert, David Campbell, Gregory Campbell, Mervyn Carrick, James Clarke, Wilson Clyde, Robert Coulter, Ivan Davis, Nigel... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: It would be crazy for every Member to have to stand up, state the name of his party and say how he was voting. We have voted quite a number of times by simply answering "Aye" or "No" on hearing our names called. This is the way it... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Vote on the Rule Proposed on Behalf of the Business Committee Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
New Paragraph (5) of draft Rule 10 agreed to. Existing paragraph (5) of draft Rule 10 renumbered (6). Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Adoption of the Rules of Procedure and Forwarded to the Secretary of State Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Peter Robinson: May I, as someone who was not a member of the Rules Committee, put on record the thanks of my Colleagues and myself. Indeed, I expect that I speak for most, if not all, Forum Members in expressing appreciation to all members of the... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: McWilliams Speech Irrelevant Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: No one is keener that I am to proceed to the rather serious matter that is to be discussed next week. I am grateful for Members' contributions, but I must ask that it be accepted that the Rules have been adopted and are to be sent to the... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I understood that we were to limit our speeches to five minutes. I hope that if I stick to five minutes my Back-Benchers will get their say. Many of them want to speak. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: May I ask whether Ms McWilliams and Mr Curran are objecting to the adopting of the Rules or just to their being forwarded to the Secretary of State? Mr Curran: To their being forwarded to the Secretary of State before we get a united... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Motion made: That the Rules of Procedure be adopted and forwarded to the Secretary of State. — [Mr Ken Maginnis] Question put: The Forum divided: Ayes 47 (96%); Noes 2. Ayes: Antony Alcock, May Beattie, Thomas Benson, Robert Bolton, David Brewster,... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms McWilliams: Having appealed to the better nature of the delegates, we are very concerned about what is being done here. For those who have argued elsewhere for many weeks about the following rules, I draw attention once again to Schedule... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
McCartney to Speak Briefly Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McCartney: I am doing pretty well compared to some Members. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Names of UUP Members who Wish to Speak Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: It is the time factor. The Leader of the Unionist Party took a long time and four Members did not stick to the five minutes, so you must give fair play to my side of the house. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Speaking Times Limited to Five Minutes Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I am sure, Mrs Robinson, that you will not take very long. A Member: It is quarter past one. The Chairman: I am going to give you a few minutes. Mrs I Robinson: Given that some Members took 10 or 15 minutes, I think that it would be... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was suspended at 1.20 pm and resumed at 2.20 pm. Friday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Editor's Note: The events of this session are conjectural; although we know the subjects that were discussed and a rough overview of debate, the editors do not have a record of the meeting. Description text is taken from the Forum meeting on 8 July... Monday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
Rules of Procedure: Speeches Under Special Circumstances Wednesday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Editors' Note: This meeting took place during lunch on 19 July 1996 between 1.20 pm and 2.20 pm. The events of this session are conjectural; although we know the subjects that were discussed and a rough overview of debate, the editors do not have a... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Several Members: Agreed. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: We want to get on with this. It should not be deferred again. May we agree to pay close attention to what has been said by Mr Campbell and Mr Robinson and then move on? Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] The parties will have to give thought to their Committee nominees — three each in the case of the larger parties, and one each in the case of the smaller parties. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hussey: Before continuing, I must say that I, like all others, find the situation that has delayed this debate by two weeks regrettable. It is also regrettable that chairs are empty for such a serious issue. We are not hearing representations that... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Bolton: Much has been said about the administration of our education system, and I shall be as brief and unrepetitive as possible. On the day the Minister made the infamous announcement, the North Eastern Board, of which I am a member, was having... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Amendment made: Leave out all the words after "asks the Minister to" and add "put the directive on hold until the views of the Forum are presented, in the form of an advisory report." — [Mr Gibson] Friday July 1996Committee: Rules Committee
[Editors' Note: The events of this session are conjectural; although we know the subjects that were discussed and a rough overview of debate, the editors do not have a record of the meeting. However, the Forum Record of Debates indicates the Committee... Wednesday June 1996Committee: The Forum
RULES OF PROCEDURE The Chairman: The Rules agreed by the Forum were passed to the Secretary of State on Tuesday. He told me that he had received them and was considering them. I am sure he will let us know as soon as possible whether he has approved them. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
EDUCATION ADMINISTRATION The Chairman: I also wrote to the Minister for Education, Michael Ancram, and conveyed to him the Forum's resolution on changes to education administration. He will reply in due course. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McMichael: It is unfortunate that it is two weeks since we last discussed this issue, because we are losing the flow. However, I understand that many people want to talk about it. One of the purposes of this Forum is to deal with such matters, and... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Morrow: Like Mr Wilson, I am not one of those totally enamoured of the area boards, because, living in the Dungannon area, I have had to watch rural schools being decimated over the past 15 years. Small schools that served rural communities and, in... Friday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Editors' Note: The events of this session are conjectural; although we know the subjects that were discussed and a rough overview of debate, the editors do not have a record of the meeting. Description text is taken from the Forum Record of Debates on... Wednesday July 1996Committee: The Forum
2.45 pm Mr Benson: I am grateful for this opportunity to speak on this very important subject. I do so having been a member of the South Eastern Education and Library Board for almost 12 years. I am currently Chairman. Like my Colleagues, I am... Friday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
Annex I - Parades Committee Wednesday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
Annex II - Education Committee Wednesday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
Annex III - Health Committee Wednesday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
Annex IV - Agriculture Committee Wednesday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
Business Committee Report: Forum Committees Wednesday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Sammy Wilson: Sometimes it is only when you are dead that people speak well of you. At least, that is what is said. Having listened to some of the comments about the education and library boards, I wonder if these are the same boards as I remember... Friday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
Business Committee's Recommendations to Forum Wednesday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Editors' Note: The Business Committee's recommendations on the Committees was referred to Forum alongside Annexes I-IV.] Wednesday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Business Committee Report: Forum Committees Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Davis: May I say at the outset that I concur very much with what Mr Sammy Wilson has said. We all have our individual views on these boards, and, having been a member of the South Eastern Board for one year, I have my own opinions about it. It is... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: If it were possible for the Alliance Party to say here in the Forum what the difficulties are, that would prevent a time-consuming suspension. I take your point, Dr Paisley, about the delay in receipt of these documents. We posted them... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Neeson:] However, there are issues concerning the topics which will be the subject of the consultation process. Mr McBride has already spoken to you, Mr Chairman, and it is our intention to furnish amendments. Secondly, with regard to the... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Neeson: Dr Paisley's remarks indicate recognition of the need to improve communications within the Forum. Let us hope that the move to our more permanent location in this building will rectify that. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Peter Robinson: I have sympathy with the Alliance view about the arrangements to inform people. Indeed, we did not receive any notification of that meeting. We telephoned to find out if it was on, as we had been told that it would be held that day.... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Decisions at Business Committee Meeting Ultra Vires Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr McBride:] We suggest that the Business Committee meet — it has not met in any legal or proper way this week — to look at these issues and see if some agreement can be reached on a way forward. People are very naïve if they look round this Chamber... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Curran: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. You have been asked to rule on an alleged ultra vires arrangement in respect of the Business Committee. Are you going to do that? Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I am ruling that it was not ultra vires. Mr Curran: In the Business Committee? The Chairman: Yes. There was a quorum. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Shannon: I too support the motion. The announcement by the Minister came as a shock to everybody. Indeed, it was serious body-blow for our education system. When you put the proposed £2 million savings in the perspective of a £900 million budget,... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Annex II - Education Committee Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Annex III - Health Committee Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Annex IV - Agriculture Committee Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Suspension of Forum to Allow the Business Committee to Meet Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Business Committee Communications Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I take complete responsibility for the inadequate notice. Notice of the last meeting was far too short, and I accept that as my fault. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] As you were kind enough to tell me that you were going to raise this matter, Mr Neeson, I have looked into it. I see that on 17 July and 19 July there were Business Committee meetings at which Alliance was not present. It would be... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: I shall wind up on behalf of my party, though I will try not to wind too many people up! This is indeed a weighty matter, which took up time on 5 July also. Unfortunately, the debate could not be finished then. Many very important... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: We cannot have a suspension. This is our last day, and there are many important matters that Members want to raise. May I say to the Alliance Party that my party too received 10 minutes' notice. While that is inadequate, this is not... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Peter Robinson:] Let me comment on the position of the Alliance Party in terms of the subjects that are dealt with in Committee. The Forum, at its last meeting, took a decision on two Committees and one subject that could be dealt with by a... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
10. 15 am Mr Taylor: It seems to me that we are beginning to talk in circles yet again. The issues that have been mentioned are notice of Business Committee meetings and whether or not the membership of Committees can be changed. These seem to be the... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Peter Robinson: Further to that point of order, Mr Chairman. Can we have it very clearly on record that the Business Committee does not take decisions? It makes recommendations, which are announced by you in the Forum and are subject to the will of... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Forum Appointment of Four Committees Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Calvert: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. The Chairman: I have dealt with the matter of the use of the "point of order". Please tell me on what point you are going to speak. Mr Calvert: I refer to the failure to receive documents for this... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Annex III: Change Topic From "Health" to "Community Relations" Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Annex IV: Change Topic From "Agriculture" to "Economy" Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McBride: It is important to consider the serious issues involved. This Forum has significant work to do — if Members want to do it. It is not a parliament but a Forum to promote political dialogue and understanding in Northern Ireland. The issues... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: You would like to substitute "Community relations" for "Health"? You would not like to have it as an additional subject? Mr McBride: No, we want it as a substitute because we cannot expect to deal with all these issues. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Secondly, the economy is a hugely important issue. It is particularly critical because of the tremendous economic damage done to the province by the events of recent weeks. Many jobs have been lost as a result of the disturbances. Several Members:... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: And you would like to substitute "Economy" for "Agriculture"? You would not in that case either wish to have it as an addition? Mr McBride: That is correct. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Taylor: I take the Alliance Party's proposal seriously. It must be treated seriously because the two subjects they have mentioned — the economy and community relations — are important in Northern Ireland. But it is a matter of getting priorities... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Taylor:] Secondly, of course the economy is important, though the Member exaggerates the effects of recent troubles in Northern Ireland. If jobs have been lost it can have been only a handful at the most, and not hundreds or thousands, as has been... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Taylor:] I hope that priority will be given to the Committees that we have recommended. Yes, we can have Committees on the economy and on community relations. Indeed, I am quite keen to contribute to both. But let us not overload ourselves with too... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: What we have seen here today is a result of the Alliance Party's not coming to the last Forum meeting. They think that because they were not here they can now change the business. We are not setting up parliamentary Committees (in... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Rev Dr Ian Paisley:] We cannot hold up our debates any longer. We should proceed to vote on this matter and tell the Alliance Party to go to the next Business Committee meeting. Let them make their case for whatever Committees they want, and we will... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I want to take up two points that Dr Paisley has mentioned. First, I was delighted to hear that his understanding is that we are not a parliament, but that we are here for the purpose of dialogue, for the purpose of creating... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Status of SDLP Membership Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Taylor: Surely no one can resign unless he offers his resignation to the Secretary of State. A letter to you, Mr Chairman, is not a resignation. Members have not formally resigned from the Forum unless they have written to the Secretary of State. As... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Thank you for telling me that. I shall write back and tell them so. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Peter Robinson: Our attendance at meetings of the Forum is the result of an election on 30 May, which put us in as delegates. Therefore, one cannot resign from the Forum without resigning as a delegate. It is from the delegates that the teams for... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hussey: We had a list system in each constituency. If the first person on the list decides no longer to attend the Forum and tenders his resignation, an invitation should go automatically to the next person on that party's list to take the Forum... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McBride: We share the interpretation of our Colleagues: that a resignation addressed to you, Mr Chairman, is not a resignation and has no legal force. The SDLP are perhaps indulging in a little game of semantics. There is no mechanism for resigning... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr David Campbell: The amendments that have been moved are not really amendments as they would result in completely different Committees. What is proposed would result in a completely different resolution. [Editors' Note: D. Campbell's comment refers... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I am impressed by that point, which was made earlier. There is a subject which is very dear to my heart — housing. Just look at the situation. Here is a Government which has done the unforgivable: bouncing in a piece of policy the day... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Neeson: Many of these things could have been resolved. I take on board totally what Mr Taylor has said about the agriculture industry, but we have got to bear in mind that, because of the events of the last week or so, one major new international... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Neeson: Community relations are a major aspect of parades. Surely that issue could be incorporated. I regret that we did not have a suspension to deal with these matters before considering them in the Forum. I should certainly like to raise the... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Vote on Alliance Amendments Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Peter Robinson: It is right to say that, as procedurally proposed by the Alliance Party, these are not amendments. You cannot amend by changing the name of a Committee and giving it a completely new remit. The Alliance Party would be quite entitled... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Thank you. This is most helpful. Can we now move on? I am very keen that before we end this series of plenary meetings, every Member should have a five-minute chance of saying what he wants to say. Mr Taylor: I am anxious to move on,... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Vote on Business Committee Report and Annexes I to IV Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McBride: We have not yet had a debate on the motion. We have been debating amendments, but not the motion itself. I certainly want to make some very strong points about the broad issues involved, apart from the amendments. The Chairman: Your may... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McBride: I want to make some comments on the proposed Parades Committee. In one fairly obvious sense, this is a very pertinent subject, and something that the Forum is entitled to debate. I want to put down a marker that this Committee will have a... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Do you want to suggest an amendment of some sort to the Annex on the Parades Committee? Mr McBride: I am not opposing it. The Chairman: You will be happy enough with it as it stands? Mr McBride: I have said that it depends. The... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: Someone moved, 15 or 20 minutes ago, that the Question now be put. We have had 45 minutes' debate for nothing. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Alliance Boycott Last Week Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I am calling a halt to this. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: Vote. The Chairman: Let us do precisely that. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Peter Robinson: As part of the debate which has just been initiated, may I say that I am not sure that we need the authority of the Forum in respect of parades and education as it was given on 19 July. The more precise remit in this document, as... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms Bell: I thought that it had been agreed that we were allowed to have a certain amount of debate on the amendments and the procedures. We did not boycott last week. We made clear in our letter to you, Mr Chairman, our reasons for not coming. The... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Coulter: I should like to propose an amendment on the constitution of the Committees, in an effort to further the good relations in the Forum. Amendment proposed: At the end of each Annex add the following paragraph: "In the absence of the SDLP,... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Annex I: Change of Alliance Numbers on Condition of SDLP absence Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Annex II: Change of Alliance Numbers on Condition of SDLP absence Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Annex III: Change of Alliance Numbers on Condition of SDLP absence Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Annex IV: Change of Alliance Numbers on Condition of SDLP absence Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Neeson: I appreciate the spirit in which the amendment was put forward by Mr Coulter, but I must point out that we do not and could not represent the SDLP. That has to be made clear. However, perhaps I can facilitate Mr Robinson. At one time we... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Coulter: In the light of that, I am happy to withdraw my amendment. Amendment in the name of Mr Coulter, by leave, withdrawn. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Coulter: In the light of that, I am happy to withdraw my amendment. Amendment in the name of Mr Coulter, by leave, withdrawn. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Peter Robinson: I want to speak against that amendment. I will be interested to hear whether the Alliance Party are prepared to be surrogates for the SDLP. That would be a very interesting position for Alliance to adopt. If the Rules are to be seen... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Coulter: In the light of that, I am happy to withdraw my amendment. Amendment in the name of Mr Coulter, by leave, withdrawn. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Coulter: In the light of that, I am happy to withdraw my amendment. Amendment in the name of Mr Coulter, by leave, withdrawn. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Annex I: Increase Committee Membership by 4 Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Annex II: Increase Committee Membership by 4 Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Annex III: Increase Committee Membership by 4 Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Annex IV: Increase Committee Membership by 4 Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Vote on Neeson Amendment to Increase Committee Membership by 4 Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: But an amendment has been put forward. If you had taken my advice, Mr Chairman, we would not be in this position. I would accept the larger parties' having an additional member, but what has been suggested is that the Alliance Party... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Amendment in the name of Mr Neeson agreed to. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Question, as amended, put and agreed to. Resolved: That, in accordance with Rule 14(1) of the Rules of Procedure, the Forum appoints four Committees, whose terms of reference, quorums and compositions are set out in Annexes I to IV attached. [...] Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Motion on Health Care Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Coulter: As this subject is too wide to cover in one speech, I will merely mention the main points and let other Members deal with the details, as they please. In my view, no subject affects the entire community like health and community care.... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Dodds: This is an extremely important subject, and it is right that the Forum should be considering it very early in its existence as an elected body representative of all Northern Ireland. I endorse most, if not all, of what has just been said by... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Adjournment for Lunch Until 2 pm Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Peter Robinson: We had the basis of an agreement. The Ulster Unionists put forward a motion. We had a proposal that there be a summer-recess debate. The compromise was that the morning would be devoted to the motion from the Ulster Unionist Party,... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Taylor: Having heard Mr Robinson, I agree that it would be better to continue until 1.15 pm and have the Adjournment-type debate after lunch. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: I wish to thank Mr Coulter for his suggested change. I do so — in my best Ballymena accent — on behalf of the people of Belfast. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Amendments made: After "services", in line 6, insert "in both urban and rural areas"; after "the", in line 9, delete "rural community" and insert "urban and rural communities". — [Mr Coulter] Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Question, as amended, put and agreed to. Resolved: [...] Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Foster: I support the motion. It is with great concern that the whole community — the professionals in the respective disciplines in health and personal social services and, of course, the patients — view the turmoil going on in the province's... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was suspended at 1.18 pm and resumed at 2.05 pm. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Continue with Debate and Have a Shortened Adjournment for Lunch Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was suspended at 1.18 pm and resumed at 2.05 pm. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Summer Recess Debate Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Call for Minister of Agriculture to Meet with Her Southern Counterpart Regarding Ban of Export of Breeding Cattle Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: That is a very good suggestion. We shall write to the Minister. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Clyde: I have just been handed a slip of paper which says that four new cases of BSE have been reported in the Irish Republic. The Chairman: I saw that. It reminds me of the words "He that is without sin among you". Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms Bell: I will be very brief. I and my party realize the seriousness of this subject, and if it is the democratic decision of the Forum to set up a Committee we will be very happy to contribute to it. I support all those who have spoken. I am very... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mrs Parkes: I am grateful for the opportunity to address the Forum today. There are many matters that affect life in Northern Ireland, and no doubt the Forum will deal with these in the future. I support the motion and the sentiments expressed by other... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hussey: I am terribly sad to hear that Mr Empey and Mr Hugh Smyth, our friends from Belfast, are such sickly beings that they require all hospital provision to be gathered into the city. Perhaps each of them should be asked how long it takes him to... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Dodds:] I also endorse what was said earlier about housing. It is a very important issue that we as a Forum should be looking at. I share your concern, Sir, that such an announcement should have been made by the Minister immediately after the House... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Invite the EC Commissioner on Fishing to the Forum Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Several Members: Oh! Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I am not on the same line as these men. I would not understand what they are shouting about. She sat as an Independent, as do I, and so she welcomed the invitation. It would be a very good thing for the Forum... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: That would be a great opportunity. Mr Shannon: Representatives from Down Council and Ards Council and Members of Parliament are meeting Baroness Denton next Thursday to discuss this matter at some length. We hope also, with the help of... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mrs Parkes: I am grateful for the opportunity to address the Forum today. There are many matters that affect life in Northern Ireland, and no doubt the Forum will deal with these in the future. I support the motion and the sentiments expressed by other... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mrs Beattie: My colleagues and I are concerned at the serious effects on health and social services arising from local authorities. These need to be addressed urgently. The Patient's Charter, published in 1992, outlines the standards of care and... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Creation of an Environment Committee Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: You are really suggesting yet another Committee — one on environmental matters. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Contribution to Canteen Staff Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: I will be very brief, as the subject has been well covered. I would like to congratulate a number of Members, who came evidently well prepared. Rev Dr Ian Paisley: Are you not well prepared? 11.45 am Mr Hugh Smyth: No — definitely... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Resolution on Health Care: Deletion of Reference to the Rural Community Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Hugh Smyth:] The other point that I want to raise was mentioned by Mrs Parkes. The troubles of the past fortnight have cost approximately £20 million. It has been implied that our current budget will have to cover that. Knowing the Government, I... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Hugh Smyth:] Again I ask the Member who introduced the motion to seriously consider the possibility of rewording it. It will cause difficulties for me and for other Members who represent the greater Belfast area if it is passed in its present form.... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: A very nice gesture. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Adjournment for Summer Recess Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] Now that we have four Committees, the important thing is to get the right people on them. We will have back-up from the Government. Three Clerks will be made available. Every help will be given to enable the Committees to do substantial... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Robert John White rose. The Chairman: Cicero/Plato was last. What are we going to have this time? Mr Robert John White: I might just rake up another story for you before I sit down. I think it was Harold Macmillan who talked about "a little local... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was adjourned at 4.00 pm. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Poots: I too regret that the SDLP Members have absented themselves from the Forum and that the Alliance Party seems to be conducting a partial boycott, if not a full boycott, today. Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Dodds:] We have heard many issues debated today. The Forum has set up four Committees, but it is clear that they do not cover all the matters we want to look at. There is a great deal of work to be done. I hope that after the summer recess we can... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: The Secretary of State has done Northern Ireland a great ill turn in his attitude to this matter. As in the case of the media, he could have made his position plain. He could have made it clear that his objection was not to the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Flying of the Union Flag when Forum is Sitting Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Vote on Flying of the Union Flag when Forum is Sitting Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
It was so decided. The Chairman: I shall now announce that a vote is to be taken — something that an official used to do for me. Actually, I am told that someone else will do it. I thought that I was going to be given a job at last. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Carrick: I support the motion, and, like a Member who spoke earlier, I do so not from any political or professional viewpoint but, rather, from the perspective of an ordinary citizen. Much has been said by the Government and their health-quango... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Taylor:] These are the kinds of things that the Committee must investigate. We can all think of the health and hospital problems in our own areas. Mr Smyth quite rightly stressed that there is a problem in the greater Belfast area. A Member: He is... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Invitation to Media Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
It was so decided Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Trimble: I wish to raise a point of order, but may I first thank my Colleague Mr Robinson for making available this small Union Jack, which will serve the purpose until we find a more suitable flag and a more suitable place. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Broadcasting Access Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McMichael: I am glad that the Forum has the facility, for the first time, to give the people of Northern Ireland an opportunity to have their voice heard and that reasoned debate is taking place. Bearing in mind the importance of this issue, it is... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms Sagar: I should like to thank Mr Taylor for having my name put forward. The Northern Ireland Women's Coalition supports this motion. Health is an extremely important issue. I have worked in my community as a community care visitor and have had to... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Benson: Last week, I was delighted with the quality of our debate on education. Today's debate has also pleased me very much, and I have no intention of repeating what has already been said. There is just one area which has not been mentioned and... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Media Presence from Outset Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I want to make three points quickly, in answer to Mr Trimble, Dr Paisley and Mr Smyth. First, there was no exclusion on the press. Members will recall that I asked them to put their hands up. There were five press people when we started. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Media Access To Remain the Same Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Taylor: As one who spent some weeks in intensive care in the Ulster Hospital many years ago, I realize that there is nothing more important in life than good health. I am delighted that this subject is being debated today in a most dignified manner,... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Calvert: I did not intend to speak, but this is too important a debate not to say my piece. I wholeheartedly support the motion. I am glad that the Forum has been given an opportunity to debate the very important issue of health, and I welcome the... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Taylor:] But it is not only that hospital that I appeal for. There are other things that I should like to see the Committee discussing: cancer treatment and the Belvoir Park Hospital. It is outrageous that the English Minister is proposing to close... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Resolution on Health Care: Addition of "urban and rural" Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Gardiner: What I have to say follows on from the excellent debate we had this morning on health. I am greatly concerned that the people of Northern Ireland are not adequately protected by the Department, and I ask Mr Moss, as Minister for Health and... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: Like all other Members, I welcome the opportunity to speak on this important matter. It is good that we have had a Damascus Road experience in the Forum today. When we came in we were berated and told that this was not an important... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Is there agreement on this? Mr Peter Robinson: I would like a slight amendment, but in the meantime all the media people should be allowed to remain. The Chairman: Is that agreed by everybody? It was so decided. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] We have dealt — to your satisfaction, I hope — with the Rules question for the moment. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Appointment of the Education Committee Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Tom Robinson: We have had a very good-humoured debate today, and that augurs well for the Forum. Mr Chairman, you may be disappointed, but, unlike my Friends, I have no yarns or stories to tell. There is absolutely no doubt that the public have... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Foster: The points that concern me are possibly a bit more mundane, though I agree with much of what Dr Paisley has said. I want to refer to the roads network in County Fermanagh, which greatly concerns me. County Fermanagh is the Mecca of the... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Very much so. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] The Committee -- one of four to be set up today -- will meet next Thursday. It must be Thursday because the negotiating teams meet Monday to Wednesday. We shall have some difficulty as certain individuals would like to serve in both... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Gibson: There is very little that one can add concerning how people feel about the health service. The vast majority of Members have mentioned several inadequacies that we are already acutely aware of. I was interested in one bit of Plato philosophy... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Empey: I want to return briefly to the issue of health provision. Despite the attempted censorship by my right hon Colleague Mr Taylor this morning, the voice of the people of the city of Belfast will be heard in this Chamber. On the question of... Friday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Editors' Note: The events of this session are conjectural; although we know the subjects that were discussed and a rough overview of debate, the editors do not have a record of the meeting. Description text is taken from the Forum Record of Debates on... Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Cedric Wilson: I have had the advantage of visiting the border counties and many of the business people affected by this boycott — wearing the hat of a member of Business and Professional People for the Union, which, unlike the CBI, the Institute of... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was suspended at 12.57 pm and resumed at 2.15 pm. [Editors' Note: The suspension for lunch occurred in the middle of T. Robinson's speech.] Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: The Rules allow a Member to speak only once to a motion. Therefore, Mr Neeson, I cannot call you again, despite what I said a few moments ago. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: Do we need to go to 1.15? There is only one Member left to speak. The Chairman: No, we have two. Mr Shannon: I indicated a wish to speak on the health issue. been aired in the Forum today — mental health. I have had first-hand... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
2.30 pm Mr Stewart: The topic I wish to speak on is the fishing industry in Northern Ireland. In the past year 40% more boats were allowed to fish in the Irish box. Where do they come from but Spain? They are taking the fish that fishermen from... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Eric Smyth: Mr Chairman, you may not like some of the things that I am going to say, but I have to be honest with my conscience. I do not agree with the motion at all — Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Motion on Boycotting: Immediate Action from Secretary of State and Chief Constable Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Eric Smyth:] — except the proposed addition. I am glad that a Committee is to be set up to look into this matter. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] I call Mr Robert Coulter to read out the revised terms of the motion, which I hope we can pass immediately. Mr Coulter: Twenty-five Members have spoken, which is very heartening. Everything that is important has been said, so I simply... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Amendment made: Add, at the end, "This Forum resolves to set up a Committee to examine the issue further, with the object of helping those at the receiving end of this vicious campaign, and calls on the Secretary of State and the Chief Constable of... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Shannon: I think that everyone, regardless of colour or creed, believes that the health service problems must be looked at and the necessary moneys spent to keep the required standards of care. Mrs Steele made a valid point about the Citizen's... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Robert John White: As regards the fluoridation of water, it is rather sad that the Government seem to be going to take no notice whatsoever of the wish of every council, bar one or two — or maybe three — in Northern Ireland. It is well established,... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Question, as amended, put and agreed to. Resolved: [...] Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Neeson: What are the Forum's plans with regard to the establishment of the Committee? And by what process will the views of people affected by the boycott be ascertained? Mr Coulter: That will be for the Committee to decide. At this stage our only... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] Some parties — particularly the smaller ones — have not yet been able to provide names. In one case there is a problem. However, I am assured that names will be forthcoming. I hope that every party will be represented on at least one Committee. Friday September 1996Committee: Standing Committee A
The Chairman: Yesterday the four Committees that the Forum decided upon were set up, and the members elected their Chairmen, as follows: Parades, Cedric Wilson; Education, Oliver Gibson; Agriculture, David Campbell; Health, Hugh Smyth. Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Speers: I have not adequately prepared for this debate because I was not aware, until I spoke to someone in a private capacity yesterday, that the Forum was to meet today. However, it would be remiss of me, as a representative of the people of Newry... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
2.45 pm Mr David Campbell: The media have made much, over the past few weeks, of the bad news emanating from Northern Ireland. Indeed, on occasions one might almost think that elements take pleasure in proclaiming Northern Ireland's problems to the... Friday July 1996Committee: Standing Committee B
The Chairman: Yesterday the four Committees that the Forum decided upon were set up, and the members elected their Chairmen, as follows: Parades, Cedric Wilson; Education, Oliver Gibson; Agriculture, David Campbell; Health, Hugh Smyth. Thursday September 1996Committee: Standing Committee C
The Chairman: Yesterday the four Committees that the Forum decided upon were set up, and the members elected their Chairmen, as follows: Parades, Cedric Wilson; Education, Oliver Gibson; Agriculture, David Campbell; Health, Hugh Smyth. Thursday September 1996Committee: Standing Committee D
The Chairman: Yesterday the four Committees that the Forum decided upon were set up, and the members elected their Chairmen, as follows: Parades, Cedric Wilson; Education, Oliver Gibson; Agriculture, David Campbell; Health, Hugh Smyth. Thursday September 1996Committee: Standing Committee A
[Editors' Note: This was the opening meeting of Standing Committee A (Public Order Issues), also known as the Parades Committee. They elected a Chairman and Vice-Chairman. Information on the membership of the Committee is taken from the Web Record of... Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: I must remember not to put any water in my whiskey tonight. I will try to lead by example, as Mr Gardiner did, and stick to my five minutes. I want to mention a subject that you, Mr Chairman, touched on this morning — the changes in... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Clyde: We all know that the BSE crisis in Northern Ireland and in Great Britain has caused great financial hardship to many beef farmers, and there is no sign yet of the ban being lifted. There have been some encouraging comments from the... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Hussey:] Perhaps in the east of the province there are those who do not understand the west. Indeed, I have discovered today that there are those of us in the west who do not fully understand the problems that may exist in the east. That is... Friday July 1996Committee: Standing Committee B
[Editors' Note: This was the opening meeting of Standing Committee B (Education Issues). They elected a Chairman and Vice-Chairman. Information on the membership of the Committee is taken from the Web Record of Debates and from Activities and... Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
2.15 pm Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I want to highlight two matters in the five minutes allocated to me. The first one is decommissioning. Two Prime Ministers made a commitment that when the election had been held and the talks structure set up, they, after... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Morrow: I would like to bring to the attention of the Forum a subject which is of great concern to every rod fisherman in Northern Ireland — river pollution. Too often we learn from television or read in the local paper of another case. Across the... Friday July 1996Committee: Standing Committee C
[Editors' Note: This was the opening meeting of Standing Committee C (Health Issues). They elected a Chairman and Vice-Chairman. Information on the membership of the Committee is taken from the Web Record of Debates and from Activities and Achievements... Thursday September 1996Committee: Standing Committee D
[Editors' Note: This was the opening meeting of Standing Committee D (Agriculture and Fisheries Issues). They elected a Chairman and Vice-Chairman. Information on the membership of the Committee is taken from the Web Record of Debates and from... Thursday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Editors' Note: The events of this session are conjectural; although we know the subjects that were discussed and a rough overview of debate, the editors do not have a record of the meeting. Description text is taken from the Forum Record of Debates on... Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Debate Topic: Beef Industry Crisis Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr David Campbell:] I support the motion and commend to Members the amendment that I have tabled. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Poots: Bovine spongiform encephalopathy — BSE, as we have come to know it — is a relatively new disease. It first appeared in the 1980s, coinciding with the relaxation in the treatment of meat-and-bone meal. It is similar to scrapie in sheep, first... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Foster:] I support the motion and the amendment, although we should be thinking about sending deputations to Ministers. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McAlister: I would like to bring before the Forum the issue of accountable democracy and the return of powers to local government. I think that everyone in this body would like to see a higher tier of accountable government. However, as that is some... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Dodds:] I agree with Mr Empey that social need, and not just numbers, should be taken into account when health provision is being considered. In the earlier debate I referred to the reduction in the home-help service and to services for the elderly... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McFarland: In keeping with the spirit of reconciliation for which we are here, I wish to address a cross-community issue. I am sorry that the seats on the other side of the Chamber are entirely vacant, because the father of a senior member of one of... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms McWilliams: The Northern Ireland Women's Coalition, believe it or not, has a view on this motion, despite the fact that none of us are farmers. I myself come from a farming background — my parents are on the land — and I am glad that the Forum is... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: I thank Mr Shannon for offering to buy us all a beef lunch. I look forward to that. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Ian Paisley Jnr:] I have already welcomed the fact that we are having this debate. It is right that such an important subject should be given priority. I wish that Members from other parties were here to voice the needs of their constituents and to... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was suspended at 12.27 pm and resumed at 1.45 pm. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McKee: I welcome this debate because it gives public representatives an opportunity to speak on matters of local interest. Mr Foster made reference to the beauty of Fermanagh. There is no doubt that it is a lovely county, but the area that I... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Poots:] I wish to raise a cross-community matter. It affects everybody in any rural community, whether Kilkeel or Castlederg. I am talking about the problems encountered by young people seeking planning permission in the countryside. Agriculture is... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I am grateful for your patience, and I thank the members of the Rules Committee, who, for the moment at least, have been able to maintain the status quo. Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Calvert:] I also congratulate Mr David Campbell on his election as Chairman of the Forum's Agriculture Committee. Mr Campbell's great capabilities are known to me personally, and I wish him God's blessing as he seeks to help the farming industry... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Calvert: I congratulate Mr Dodds on his presentation of this very important motion. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Gibson:] I congratulate Mr David Campbell on being elected Chairman of the Agriculture Committee. We all appreciate that it has an urgent and difficult, but most important, task to carry out. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Stoker: I wish to throw down a challenge to the media — not that there are many of them here at the moment. When we are not fighting with each other they stay away. I should like them, for a change, to report deprivation in Protestant areas. It... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Shannon: I should like to draw Members' attention to the plight of the fishing industry in Portavogie. This is something I feel strongly about, as does our Member of Parliament, John Taylor, and our Member of the European Parliament, Dr Paisley. The... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McAlister: I support the motion, although I have some misgivings, with which I shall deal at the very end. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr McAlister:] I congratulate Mr David Campbell on taking up the chairmanship of the Agriculture Committee, and I wish him every success. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr McAlister:] I also congratulate Mr Dodds on the excellent way he set the tone for this debate, and I look forward to the summing-up by Rev William McCrea. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr McAlister:] Then I have condemnation for the SDLP, who are not here today. This problem goes right across the political divide, and SDLP Members would have served their community much better by being here. I hope that this message will go out to... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Sammy Wilson: I will be as brief as possible, for two reasons. First, coming at the end of the debate, I suppose that, as other Members have said, most of what has to be said has been said. Secondly, coming from an urban constituency, I am perhaps... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Notices of Motion Paper Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: That is absolutely correct. We want to have a backlog — or a forward-log, if there is such a thing — of subjects to deal with. I shall make sure that a book is made available and is passed round the parties. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
FORUM: RULES OF PROCEDURE The Chairman: As I indicated last week, I had a meeting with the Secretary of State on Tuesday afternoon to discuss his letters to me about the Rules. We had a useful and honest exchange of views, and I left him in no doubt... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Gaston: Having arrived late, I am totally unprepared to say anything. I have no clerical or legal training, and I am not very good at stretching out a subject, but I will do my best. One of my colleagues mentioned the Milk Cup. For the benefit of... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: This is an important debate, and I welcome it. I am only sorry that certain Members have demonstrated their inability to sustain dialogue, by running away from this Chamber instead of addressing issues that concern us all. I shall... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Notice of Debate Topic: Disability Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Procedural Issue: Determinations of Business Committee on 19 September 1996 Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Forum Business and Remit Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Neeson: I must correct some of the statements made by Mr McCartney. First, there is no such convention. The Ulster Unionists have led off in two debates, and last week the DUP led off on the issue of BSE, as was their wish. It was then decided that... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Trevor Kirkland: It has been fascinating to hear about the various matters that have been raised in this debate. There are, however, core issues which ought to be investigated in order for this elected body to have any relevance for the people of... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Bolton: Just before lunch, when you, Mr Chairman, gave us the benefit of your knowledge and voiced your concerns about housing, I indicated that I wanted to say something on another subject — the environment. It is an issue very pertinent to the... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Calvert: I cannot say that I am a young farmer, being a little older! At a time when the farming community is being hit very badly by the BSE crisis, sheep farmers too are facing difficulties. Tougher curbs on sheep slaughtering have been proposed... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Neeson:] Secondly, either the talks at Castle Buildings have primacy or they do not. This is central to the issue which Mr McCartney has raised. I firmly believe that decommissioning is an issue for negotiation at the talks. Every member of the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Gibson: I want to mention three or four items, which I am sure have come to the attention of other Members. The first concerns the deprivation that affects small areas of rural Tyrone. There is one valley just outside Omagh which the water service... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Weir:] The two substantive debates that we have had over the last few weeks — substantive in the economic and social sense — concentrated on education and health. One of the themes running through those debates was not just lack of resources but... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Alliance Party Intervention Contrary to Rules Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Neeson: Far from it. I was making a correction - stating what really happened at the Business Committee yesterday. I have said that decommissioning is crucial to this whole process and that it is an issue for negotiation in the talks. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mrs I Robinson: I want to go back to the health issue. Another aspect of the deplorable state of our health-care system is the effect on patients of GP fundholding. The fundholder is now basically running a business and looking at patients from a... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Peter Robinson: May I say how useful this type of debate is. If it were an Adjournment debate in the House of Commons, it is likely that there would be only two or three people in the Chamber. Yet, even at this time of the afternoon, we have a very... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Points of Order Need to be Taken Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: No, I do not, unless I am satisfied that it is proper under our Rules. Mr Hugh Smyth: Is it OK if I speak now? The Chairman: Please heed the point I am making: that the tribal incantation "On a point of order, Mr Chairman" does not... Friday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
Smaller Parties' Right to Raise Motions Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] Everybody has had five minutes, and I want to say a couple of things in the four that remain. The first is "Thank you." I am a totally amateurish fellow in this kind of seat. I came here with less than 48 hours' notice, and people have... Friday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Donaldson: The subject I want to deal with was referred to earlier by my Friend Mr Taylor and others. It relates to the SDLP's non-participation in the Forum. I raise it because it has to be put on record that the SDLP is attempting a fraud. Its... Friday July 1996Committee: Business Committee
[The Chairman:] That point was conceded. There was no problem about it. Obviously the smaller parties would all regard it as absolutely offensive if they could not bring forward a motion. Thursday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
Motion on Decommissioning Thursday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
[The Chairman:] on which there was a discussion. Thursday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
[The Chairman:] There was a vote, and it was not in favour of our having a debate next Friday. The grounds for that decision were for the people who voted. Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Refer Rule 6(7) to the Business Committee Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Rev Dr Ian Paisley:] I support what the Deputy Leader of my party has said. As Committee action has been declared ultra vires on one occasion, it could be so declared again. It is for the Forum today to pass a resolution. This does not need to go to... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Rev Dr Ian Paisley:] The Secretary of State finds himself in a very difficult position. According to the press, he did not want the Union flag on the identity card for Northern Ireland. He raised a whole commotion about this and advocated surrender to... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Jim Rodgers: Before accepting that motion, Mr Chairman, can you please clarify something for me. I understand that the Northern Ireland Office is now describing the third floor of this building as Crown premises and that that is why there was no... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: The motion on which the Forum is about to vote, being a business motion, requires 50%-plus agreement. Question put. The Forum divided: Ayes 51; Noes 1. Ayes: Antony Alcock, May Beattie, Thomas Benson, Robert Bolton, David Brewster,... Friday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
Mr McMichael: The UDP was not represented at the Business Committee yesterday. The Chairman: That is correct. Thursday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Editors' Note: The events of this session are conjectural; although we know the subjects that were discussed and a rough overview of debate, the editors do not have a record of the meeting. Description text is taken from the Forum Record of Debates on... Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
UKUP Motion to be Debated Next Week Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. Surely when Mr McCartney gives way for an intervention he should then resume his speech. If there is to be another intervention, it must be separate. At the end of his speech all of us will be... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: Is it not a fact that the Northern Ireland Office, which was evidently so keen to spend lavish sums of money on this building, refused to allow a permanent recording point and television facilities? As the Leader of the Ulster... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: But none of them were television reporters. The Chairman: I am coming to that. Mr Hunter: I understand that the television camera crews were prevented from proceeding beyond the Chamber door. The Chairman: I am not aware of that.... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hunter: I should like to refer to the question of access for the camera media. In our beautiful surroundings we have at the back these rather interesting things shaped like a partial "U". If they were turned round, the cameramen could stand behind... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
10.45 am Mr Peter Robinson: We have a safe haven on this side of the building — no press or public in the corridors. If only one side were available for the press — we cannot have them walking round in the centre — they might get a better view of the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Mr Robinson was first. Rev Dr Ian Paisley: You must determine whether there is leave for what I have moved. The Chairman: As I have said, Mr Robinson was first. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: UKUP Motion Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Cedric Wilson: I am speaking. Mr Neeson: On an important point of order, Mr Chairman. The Chairman: I will come to you in a moment, Mr Neeson. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: No Motion on Prisoners Tabled Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McMichael rose. The Chairman: Mr McMichael. Mr Peter Robinson: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. The Chairman: Sorry. I have left Mr Robinson hanging about for a long time. Mr Peter Robinson: I should like to make two comments about procedure. I... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
10.45 am [Mr Peter Robinson:] Secondly, I must question the value of having Rules if you are not going to take points of order. A procedure adopted in any debating chamber, even at university level, is that a point of order must be taken immediately.... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hunter: I understand that officials prevented the camera crews from coming through the Chamber door. That is why there were only the five print journalists present. The cameramen were all waiting outside. Indeed, they were here before the meeting... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Letter from Michael Ancram Regarding Education Boards Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I, like the Committee members who have talked to me, have the great difficulty that no secretariat has been appointed. When I mentioned this to Mr Ancram yesterday he said that it had nothing to do with him and that he would refer... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Peter Robinson:] There is another general principle relating to any democratic assembly — that it is master of its own business. It may well make arrangements whereby the business can be brought before the House, but it must always have a right to... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: McCartney's Language Objectionable Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I thought that Mr McCartney said — I may have heard wrongly — that he did not associate with thugs. He did not mention any Member. The Chairman: That is a perfectly valid thing to say. Rev Dr Ian Paisley: You cannot ask a person... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
UKUP Motion to be Referred to the Business Committee Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Motion on Decommissioning [As Introduced in the Forum] Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Peter Robinson: This is a matter to which I referred in the last meeting before the recess. I did so in the context of the fact that I had issued a statement drawing attention to what I recognized to be a part of the IRA's strategy in Northern... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Cedric Wilson:] While PUP Members are quite happy to debate prison issues — the Forum should indeed debate such matters — they and the Ulster Unionists want to stifle debate and dodge the issue of decommissioning. People out on the streets want to... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Neeson: I support the motion. Boycott has been the curse of politics in Northern Ireland. Those of us who have been involved in politics for many years — perhaps including the Northern Ireland Convention, the Northern Ireland Assembly or the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms Sagar: The Northern Ireland Women's Coalition also supports this motion. We feel that people throughout Northern Ireland are suffering badly. I endorse what was said earlier about local communities. It is not just all businesses in Northern Ireland... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: I will be very brief, as usual. This subject has been debated adequately, but I make no apology for supporting the motion. Like Mr Robinson, I was rather surprised at the length of time it has taken some members of the SDLP, and the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
11.15 am The Chairman: Before taking the vote, I am delighted to welcome to the Chamber my old friend Erskine Holmes. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Document for Housing Debate Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Editors' Note: Holmes left the chamber after providing the documents.] Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Member signs the roll Friday June 1996Committee: The Forum
A Member: Mr Chairman, will you please repeat the words of the motion. Some Members have just come in. They have taken a position on the matter, strangely enough. Maybe you could let them know what they have been voting on. Mr Hugh Smyth: I have full... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Hugh Smyth:] Mr Chairman, like some other Members, I do not agree with your vision of the economy of Northern Ireland. At times a false picture is presented to us. We have to bear in mind that the retail trade is probably the biggest employer in... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr John White: I certainly support the motion. The economics of this situation have been well discussed today. It will certainly be very destabilizing if it continues. We should look at the wider picture. It is abundantly clear that the people behind... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Gibson: It would be difficult to continue this debate without repeating much of what has been said: Mr Foster talked about John Hume commanding Craigavon Bridge and holding the people of the city of Londonderry to ransom. When interviewed, he made a... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Editors' Note: The Forum moved on from discussing the Business Committee and since no ruling was made that McCartney was out of order the editors have represented the Alliance Point of Order as dropped.] Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Foster: I support the motion. Let me say at the outset that we are in a period of great confusion and in the grip of an almost paralysing fatalism. Is Northern Ireland, because of subtle Republican strategy, to become a rubble heap, a charnel-house,... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hussey: Like Mr Gibson, I find that much of what I was going to say has already been said. I shall therefore try to be succinct. During the worst period of terror to grip Northern Ireland the commercial sector absorbed great pressure and rightly... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: Before dealing with the subject of the motion I wish to refer to your opening comments, Mr Chairman. You referred to the stoicism of the Ulster people, particularly business people, who, when persecuted, have as their motto... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Extension of Housing Debate until 4 pm Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I am in Members' hands. I think that if Members were not being repetitious, it would be worth continuing with such an important subject. It was so decided. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
BEEF INDUSTRY CRISIS (BSE) Rev Dr Ian Paisley: Mr Chairman, you mentioned the farming crisis in your opening remarks. Might I say that, in spite of the disunity that has been manifested here today, there was unity at the Downing Street meeting among... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Motion on Housing Policy Review Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Speers: I have no doubt that you, Mr Chairman, as a former Vice-Chairman and indeed Chief Executive of the Northern Ireland Housing Executive –– you were a member of the board, but there have been some changes since then –– remember well your visits... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Speers to Continue Speech after Lunch Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Very well. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was suspended at 12.43 pm and resumed at 2.02 pm. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Motion on Housing Policy Review: Addition of Withholding Implementation Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
It would have been very good to be able to support the motion fully, but unfortunately it is mealy-mouthed. It does not get to the heart of the matter. Today many Members have got to the heart of the matter and pointed to the real issues. This motion... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Dodds: I will try to be as brief as possible, given that, so far, only two Members have spoken and that quite a number want to comment on this very important issue. Indeed, it was raised by several Members during the Adjournment debate on the last... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
12.30 pm Mr Speers: I rise to support the motion, at the risk of repeating wise comments about the boycott of businesses, not only in the border areas but throughout Northern Ireland. Coming from the city and district of Armagh and representing the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Cedric Wilson: I concur with many of the sentiments expressed by Mr Dodds. As I come from a rural area, perhaps I will be excused if my comments are mostly about matters rural. Actually, rural areas have problems similar to those facing the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Coulter: On 22 July the DOE announced some reportedly tentative conclusions it had reached after consultations on its 1995 paper 'Building on Success on the Way Forward'. The motion might be more accurately worded along that line. The SDLP housing... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: I will be very brief, because many of the things I was going to say have already been said. I would like to remind everyone what this is all about. It is about a new housing policy review document. That document says that the Housing... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms McWilliams: Everything has been said about the Housing Executive's role, but I would like to add my voice to those already heard in acknowledgment of its success since 1971. I remember, in the 1970s, looking at infant mortality rates for Northern... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Meeting Adjournment and Continue Debate the Following Friday Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Forum Cannot Decide Its Business Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Peter Robinson:] I am quite content that we should deal with this subject, but the Business Committee decided, for better or for worse, that next Friday's business should be a motion on disability. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Peter Robinson:] We spent a long time this morning being told by others that the Business Committee's decisions were final. Other people were won over by our argument, however, and now accept that we have primacy when it comes to determining... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Trevor Kirkland: This motion is very relevant, and it is good that the Forum is debating it. It is relevant for a number of reasons. For a flight from and an inversion of reality, Members should recall words of Ms Sagar. I paraphrase: "You are the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Brewster: May I first congratulate you, Mr Chairman, for your very upbeat and fair account of the good things that are happening in the economic life in Northern Ireland. I think it was Napoleon who said that the British were a nation of... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: Surely not. We would simply be adjourning the debate until next Friday, then to conclude the business that the Business Committee has put before us. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] We are talking about whether I should make a ruling about adjourning this debate to next Friday. Mr Cedric Wilson: I thought you had. The Chairman: So did I. Mr Taylor: I understood that Mr Nesbitt was making a speech and that we... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Extension of Sitting Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
It being 4.00 pm, the debate stood adjourned. [Editors' Note: Because C. Wilson's motion wasn't voted on before 4.00 pm it was automatically dropped as Forum stood adjourned.] Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Brewster:] I should say, in passing, that, like Mr Paisley, I am aware of discrimination against Protestants in Manorcunningham and Convoy. Whilst this does not relate specifically to the motion, I am sure that most Members agree that it is... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Cedric Wilson: I have to inform you, Mr Chairman, that I will be telling the press that the Forum and those Members who are not prepared to stay for today's business - A Member: We have agreed. Rev Dr Ian Paisley: The Forum has given leave for... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Extension of Sitting Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Several Members: Agreed. The Chairman: For how long? Mr Cedric Wilson: Five minutes would be sufficient. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Peter Robinson: With regard to the decision to adjourn the housing debate to next Friday, is there to be a specified period, and will the disability motion be taken after it? The Chairman: We ought to decide now so that such an important subject as... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McKee: On this occasion every right-thinking Member should take time to say a few words in support of those people along the border who are being persecuted though their only crime is being Protestant. I come from a Loyalist town where it is easy to... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. Perhaps you should inform visitors that we operate under the same rule as any other parliamentary body. There should be no cheering, clapping or passing of remarks in the Chamber. It is outrageous... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Motions Require Advance Notice or Leave of Motion Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
A Member: He did. Mr Nesbitt: Do we have the leave of the Forum? Several Members: Yes. Mr Nesbitt: If leave has been given, the motion may be put to the Forum. This morning the procedure was slightly different: the motion went ahead without leave.... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Weir: I shall try to keep my remarks brief. I do not intend to refer to the events of Drumcree, for two reasons. First, they have already been debated fully in the Forum. Secondly, I agree with much of what other Members have said. This boycott... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mrs I Robinson: There are approximately 100,000 Orangemen and Orangewomen in Northern Ireland, and I make no apology for saying that if those good people were as black as they have been painted — indeed, they have been demonized by the Roman Catholic... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Vote on Amendment to Committee A's Remit Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
It was so decided. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting adjourned at 4.09 pm. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Letter from the Secretary of State Concerning the Rules of Procedure Agreed by the Forum - 19 September 1996 Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: It is difficult for you, Mr Chairman, when not all the traditions are represented in the House. must you refer only to the people in the House when you take your decision, or must you refer also to Members who do not attend? If the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Message to the SDLP Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: We have got that message already. Mr Jim Rodgers: Well I am reinforcing it, because I do not think we can say it often enough. The Chairman: So far as I am concerned, you have said it once too often. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Accept Rules of Procedure Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
It was so decided. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Start of Forum Operations under the New Rules Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Carrick: I am pleased to speak to the widened motion. The original wording is quite restrictive. The deputy Leader of my party and Mr Gibson both said that it should go further. I am delighted that there has been agreement in this respect. The... Friday September 1996Committee: Standing Committee B
Mr Gibson: The Education Committee received 21 delegations, 19 of which, including representatives from the church, business and education worlds, asked me to convey their good wishes to the Forum in all its deliberations. Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Resumption of Debate on Motion on Housing Policy Review Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: After that interesting rant I am more than happy to speak on the future of public-sector housing in Northern Ireland. This is, of course, a vital issue. It affects all sections of the community. The Labour spokesman talked about the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Point of Order: Alderdice Comments Unacceptable Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I have said already, and I now rule, that we have to accept that there is a certain cut and thrust in political dialogue. There are times when it is quite useful, for example, not to bother to mention my hearing aid. I should like Lord... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Eric Smyth:] Actually, there has been boycotting since the day and hour this state was set up. We, as Unionists, must realize what it is all about — destroying the province. It is time we wakened up to the fact that soft-pedalling to Nationalist... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Shannon: It will be very hard to follow the speeches that we have heard in the last 30 or 45 minutes. I do not want to deal with issues that others have already commented upon, but I want to express support for the motion, with the suggested... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Amendment made: Leave out all the words after "The Forum" and add "notes the Government's intention, as stated in the housing policy review 'The Way Ahead', to remove the provider role from the Northern Ireland Housing Executive and to move the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Question, as amended, put and agreed to. Resolved: The Forum notes the Government's intention, as stated in the housing policy review 'The Way Ahead', to remove the provider role from the Northern Ireland Housing Executive and to move the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Editors' Note: The Debate on the Motion on the Housing Policy Review finished at 12.00 pm.] Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Motion on Disability Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Editors' Note: The Forum voted against the Motion being discussed the following week, as well as it for it to return to the Business Committee. Since no decision is made on when or if the Motion was to be debated, and Members complained that it was... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
3.15 pm Rev William McCrea: Things are very difficult throughout my constituency. People in places like Castlederg, Cookstown, Pomeroy and Bellaghy are suffering. It may be that certain persons find these sentiments hilarious, but the vast majority in... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Peter Robinson: Since entering the House of Commons 17 years ago, I have supported a number of attempts — all of them with cross-party support — to pass legislation on discrimination against disabled people. We were told, as time went on, that such... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was suspended at 12.52 pm and resumed at 2.00 pm. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Foster: I rise to support the motion and to concur with many things that have been said, especially some very pertinent points made by my Colleague Mr Gardiner. Certainly there is a thrust these days to ease problems for the disabled, but I am not... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Extension of Meeting Until 4.15 pm Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Resolved: That the meeting be extended to 4.15 pm. — [The Chairman] Debate resumed. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hussey: I shall be very succinct. I support the motion and, in so doing, simply say that I do not recognize disability. I recognize fellow human beings. My best friend is a 35-year-old man who is regarded by some as mentally retarded. I have no... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Happy Ulster Day Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Gregory Campbell: I have been told by my Chief Whip that good speeches should contain no repetition, no deviation and no hesitation. I did not plan to speak at length, and the advice will probably ensure that I don't. The problem we are faced with... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr David Campbell:] Let me digress briefly to inform the Forum what the Agriculture Committee is doing to complement the DUP motion. We met yesterday for the first time and decided, after the formal elections, to immediately pursue the submissions... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Thank you very much. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] I shall now put the Question. Mr Hugh Smyth: What about Mr Eric Smyth's request that we send the matter back to the Business Committee? The Chairman: No. Question put and agreed to. Resolved: This Forum calls for effective... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: My guidance is simply that you have made a most eloquent and very moving speech, and I am certain that the Business Committee will consider what you have said and come back to you. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
FORUM: BUSINESS The Chairman: Finally, the Business Committee will be looking at the suggestion arising from Mr Eric Smyth's speech, supported by Mr Hugh Smyth. We shall also be discussing the matter of the Christmas recess — when it should be and... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Ken Maginnis: We have heard many expressions of outrage. It is quite right that there should be outrage at a boycott that has gripped large areas of the province, particularly in my constituency. I am not going to repeat what Mr Foster said about... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Meeting Adjournment Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was adjourned at 4.15 pm. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Call to Order Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was called to order at 10.00 am (Mr J R Gorman in the Chair). Friday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Editors' Note: The events of this session are conjectural; although we know the subjects that were discussed and a rough overview of debate, the editors do not have a record of the meeting. Description text is taken from the Forum Record of Debates on... Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The meeting was suspended at 12.29 pm and resumed at 1.46 pm. Friday October 1996Committee: The Forum
Vote on Alliance Amendment First Friday October 1996Committee: Business Committee
[Editors' Note: The events of this session are conjectural; although we know the subjects that were discussed and a rough overview of debate, the editors do not have a record of the meeting. Description text is taken from the Forum Record of Debates on... Thursday October 1996Committee: The Forum
Debate Topic: Bombing of Thiepval Army Barracks Friday October 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McAlister: There is much that I would like to say, but, conscious of the time, I will not rehearse many of the points which have been made so eloquently. I agree that this is an orchestrated campaign. We know about the attempts to demonize the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Cedric Wilson: I concur with the comments of the two Members who commenced the debate, and I commend them on their excellent and informative speeches. I do not want to downgrade the debate with my lack of knowledge of the intricate details of the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Give McCartney Leave to Continue Speech Friday October 1996Committee: The Forum
Business Plan for 8 July 1996 Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] We would then devote an hour to the real business — the education matter. When I say "the real business" I am not being derogatory with regard to the previous matter. The interrupted debate of Friday last will be resumed. Monday July 1996Committee: Standing Committee A
Forum Appointment of Four Committees (Parades Committee) Thursday September 1996Committee: Standing Committee B
Forum Appointment of Four Committees (Education Committee) Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: We live in very serious times, but it ought to be remembered that in the early days of this state our fathers faced the problem of an across-the-board boycott. The Republicans won their victory in the South of Ireland by the boycott... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
11.15 am Mr Morrow: I support the motion. I do so as someone from a town that has two EC-approved meat plants. I understand that quite recently Coopers and Lybrand were commissioned to carry out a survey of the cost of the disposal of culled cattle.... Friday September 1996Committee: Standing Committee C
Forum Appointment of Four Committees (Health Committee) Thursday September 1996Committee: Standing Committee D
Forum Appointment of Four Committees (Agriculture and Fisheries Committee) Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McCarthy: The crisis in the beef industry is undoubtedly one of the greatest threats to the Northern Ireland economy. All those engaged in it, including farmers, manufacturers and retailers, are suffering. All the efforts that have been put into... Friday September 1996Committee: Standing Committee D
Examination of Witnesses Thursday September 1996Committee: Standing Committee D
[Editors' Note: The events of this session are conjectural; although we know the subjects that were discussed and a rough overview of debate, the editors do not have a record of the meeting. Description text is taken from the Forum meeting on 20... Thursday September 1996Committee: Standing Committee A
Plans to Take Evidence Thursday September 1996Committee: Standing Committee A
[Editors' Note: The events of this session are conjectural; although we know the subjects that were discussed and a rough overview of debate, the editors do not have a record of the meeting. Description text is taken from the Forum meeting on 20... Thursday September 1996Committee: Standing Committee C
[Editors' Note: The events of this session are conjectural; although we know the subjects that were discussed and a rough overview of debate, the editors do not have a record of the meeting. Description text is taken from the Forum meeting on 20... Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Junkin: I should like, first, to commend Mr Dodds on his opening speech. It was very good and very illuminating to anyone who knew little or nothing about the beef crisis in Northern Ireland. I have to say that all my stock have two legs. I am not... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Morrow:] Mr Campbell has suggested an amendment to the motion, and I can see what he is getting at. But the Government stand condemned. They have dithered. If we cannot go to the person responsible — namely, Baroness Denton — and say that "You are... Friday September 1996Committee: Standing Committee C
Plans to Take Evidence Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: This has been a most constructive meeting, with some very good speeches. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Members will have noted Mr Shannon's recommended dish. I hope that it will not all be gone by the time I get Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Thank you very much for an excellent debate. Thirty-one people spoke today, and I even called them by their right names! I want to say one thing about the Farmers' Union. I have had two telephone calls from Brussels - one from Mr Greer... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Before calling Mr Sam Clyde, I want to report on the matter he raised in the summer recess debate of 26 July — the ban imposed on the export of breeding cattle in general from Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland. Mr Clyde pressed... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Clyde:] The problem about speaking after so many others is that many of the things that one intended to say have been said already. There are farmers who have had cattle entered for the cull scheme for over two months and still cannot get them to... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Benson: I compliment Mr Dodds on this very fine motion, and Mr David Campbell on the proposed amendment. It has been stated that agriculture is the most important industry in Northern Ireland, and I think we all agree. Owing to the BSE problem it... Friday September 1996Committee: Standing Committee A
Request from Parades Committee to Extend Remit Thursday September 1996Committee: Standing Committee A
Expand Remit of Parades Committee to Include Boycotting Thursday September 1996Committee: Standing Committee A
Mr Cedric Wilson: Can you deal with my request, Mr Chairman? I am not doing this to be selfish. It was agreed by the Business Committee and by the Secretary to the Forum that this matter would be dealt with at the end of today's business. [Editors'... Thursday September 1996Committee: Standing Committee A
Mr Cedric Wilson: Can you deal with my request, Mr Chairman? I am not doing this to be selfish. It was agreed by the Business Committee and by the Secretary to the Forum that this matter would be dealt with at the end of today's business. [Editors'... Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Foster: In supporting the motion, I commend other Members on the incisive way in which they pointed out the real problems. I feel very much like the little dog running up a street full of lamp-posts, coming near the end of the street and fast... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: I have said every week that I will be brief, but this time I really mean it. I support the motion and the amendment proposed by the Ulster Unionist Party. Most things that could be said have already been said, but I must say how... Friday September 1996Committee: Standing Committee A
Mr Cedric Wilson: Can you deal with my request, Mr Chairman? I am not doing this to be selfish. It was agreed by the Business Committee and by the Secretary to the Forum that this matter would be dealt with at the end of today's business. [Editors'... Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Shannon: I support the motion and the amendment. We may feel at a later stage that we have to turn the screws, so to speak, on Ministers. Then, perhaps, condemnation will be more appropriate. Coming from a rural community and living in the... Friday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
Request from Parades Committee to Extend Remit Thursday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
Forum Appointment of Four Committees (Parades Committee) Thursday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
Expand Remit of Parades Committee to Include Boycotting Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Calvert:] As a humble farmer who lives in a less-favoured area, I know all about what this ban will mean in the weeks ahead for the beef industry in Northern Ireland. I was at Ballyclare mart last Monday. Quite early in the morning — just after 8... Friday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
Mr Cedric Wilson: Can you deal with my request, Mr Chairman? I am not doing this to be selfish. It was agreed by the Business Committee and by the Secretary to the Forum that this matter would be dealt with at the end of today's business. [Editors'... Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Carrick: Speaking in support of the motion, I realize that the subject has been very well ventilated, and the critical issues correctly identified. However, I want to draw attention to a couple of cases that might help to focus attention on the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mrs Parkes: I am grateful for the opportunity to take part in this very important debate, which affects not just farmers but the entire community. I speak not as a farmer or a farmer's wife, but as a consumer and a housewife and as someone who has... Friday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
Mr Cedric Wilson: Can you deal with my request, Mr Chairman? I am not doing this to be selfish. It was agreed by the Business Committee and by the Secretary to the Forum that this matter would be dealt with at the end of today's business. [Editors'... Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Empey: As was said earlier, this is not a problem just for Members representing rural constituencies. An industry of this significance has an impact on the urban dweller, not only as consumer but also as fellow citizen. Ancillary industries go far... Friday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
Mr Cedric Wilson: Can you deal with my request, Mr Chairman? I am not doing this to be selfish. It was agreed by the Business Committee and by the Secretary to the Forum that this matter would be dealt with at the end of today's business. [Editors'... Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Request from Parades Committee to Extend Remit Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Forum Appointment of Four Committees (Parades Committee) Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Gibson: I want to congratulate those in the political world who have given leadership in this crisis, including our three MEPs and our Members of Parliament, who have led the field in trying to mediate in the desperate circumstances that prevail. I... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Gibson:] All Members who represent rural areas are very well aware that the farmer's income lubricates the financial machinery of the rest of the economy. A quick glance at the statistics will show that the agriculture industry, worth £651 million,... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Expand Remit of Parades Committee to Include Boycotting Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Peter Robinson: Before going on to another issue, we should make a decision about the one that I raised. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Vote on Request from Parades Committee to Extend Remit Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: For the moment that is not the issue. Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Dr Ian Paisley: We have time to settle an important matter, with your consent, Mr Chairman. The Committee to which Mr Cedric Wilson has referred cannot go ahead until this is done. I understand Mr Wilson's concern. Can the matter not be put to the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Cedric Wilson: I have to object, Mr Chairman. You are making it impossible for the Committee on parades and boycotting to go ahead next week. We are simply asking that the Forum give it permission to deal with boycotting. Is that not a simple matter... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mrs Steele: I commend those Members who have spoken. There have been very good speeches from all sides of the House. I regret that some sections of the community are not represented here today. We have heard about the farmers, the economy and the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Eric Smyth: I support this proposal. Like many people, I feel that when you interfere with nature you get disaster. God created animals for man, and man has destroyed that which God gave. We listen to scientists as they speak with authority, but... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Editors' Note: After the Forum made their decision on the amendment, the original Forum Appointment of Four Committees (Parades Committee) document was referred back to the Committee.] Friday September 1996Committee: Standing Committee A
Forum Appointment of Four Committees (Parades and Boycotts Committee) Thursday September 1996Committee: Standing Committee A
[Editors' Note: The events of this session are conjectural; although we know the subjects that were discussed and a rough overview of debate, the editors do not have a record of the meeting. Description text is taken from the Forum meeting on 20... Thursday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Tom Robinson: How do you follow that? The only words Mr Eric Smyth left out are "No surrender". We are coming towards the conclusion of this debate, and all the major points have been covered. I congratulate Mr Dodds and Mr David Campbell, who led... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr McAlister:] I want to sum up by saying that, although I understand the rationale behind the amendment — it is difficult to condemn Baroness Denton and Douglas Hogg and then ask them to come along and speak to us — I agree with my Colleague Mr... Friday September 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule A(1): Removal of Reference to Secretary of State Tuesday June 1996Committee: Rules Committee
Rule 5(1): Change in Quorum Numbers Tuesday June 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr McAlister:] Much has been said today. I do not want to go over all the points that have been made, but anyone speaking in a debate should question his qualifications. I am the son of a butcher. My father was in the meat trade all his life. I am old... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hussey: I wish to speak briefly in support of the motion. I am tempted to take "BSE" as meaning "bloody stupid Eurocrats". Actually, I withdraw that immediately, because it would be totally wrong. What we are facing are blatantly slanted... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McFarland: It is late in the day, and I am conscious that most of the arguments have been fairly well thrashed out. However, there are a few comments that I would like to make. We have in this crisis an interesting political juxtaposition, in which... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Trevor Kirkland: I support the motion. I can safely say that the farmers' case has been well put, and many aspects of this whole crisis have been raised. Looking at the background to the crisis, we note that for eight years Ministers insisted that... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Report on Government Position on BSE Crisis from NI Representatives Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr McCartney:] I understand that the Business Committee voted against that motion's being debated next Friday. It was put forward by Mr Wilson and received the support of the representatives of the Democratic Unionist Party, but was opposed by members... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr McCartney:] I understand that this motion, which according to convention should have been accepted, as it was our turn, was turned down on the basis that it was allegedly improper for the Forum to discuss publicly matters that could conceivably be... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Rev Dr Ian Paisley:] Is it your view, Mr Chairman, that this Forum is master of its own affairs, that no Committee can dictate what it shall discuss? It is intolerable, and against natural justice, that a minority party bringing forward a motion can... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: I am not trying to deprive anyone of the right of free speech, but I came here this morning with an agenda, which lists opening remarks from you, Sir, and then a debate on housing. Mr McCartney raised a point on the Business Committee.... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr McCartney:] I want to move on to the main point. The suggestion of Mr Neeson that there is no convention that the parties should be entitled to put forward motions in proportion to their strength is given the lie by what he said. The largest... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr McCartney:] My next point concerns the suggestion that this body cannot discuss issues that may be the subject of detailed and confidential negotiation at Stormont. That suggestion does not bear the slightest logical scrutiny. Anyone here could go... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: It looks as though this is going to be a nice morning. I can see that there will be many speeches before we are done. It might be useful if I were to read from the Rules with which we started the Forum a part that has not been altered in... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Nesbitt: It has been said that the Forum may discuss any issues relevant to the talks. I agree that it would be illogical and absurd to say otherwise. I come back to Rule 8(1), which sets out the only proviso: "The business of the Forum shall be... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Peter Robinson: Having heard Mr Nesbitt, I am sorry that he was not at the Business Committee meeting yesterday. If he had been, we might have had a different outcome. The arguments that he has made are precisely those that we made. Unfortunately,... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Cedric Wilson: Mr Nesbitt referred to previous meetings of the Business Committee. He is quite right: this was my second attempt at the Business Committee to have the issue of decommissioning raised. On the previous occasion we did not have a motion... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Cedric Wilson: There have been many interventions by other Members, and I have sat quietly and listened. A number of comments made here today require clarification. The question of prisons was raised by the PUP, and it was agreed by the Business... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Peter Robinson:] Dr Paisley asked that, by leave of the Forum, the UK Unionists, as the next-largest party, be allowed to take control of the motion for the following Friday. I do not think that that is an unreasonable request, and I ask every... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McMichael: I would like, in deference to Mr McCartney's clairvoyant and telepathic abilities, to refer to the fact that the PUP and the UDP were not represented in the Business Committee. I cannot speak about the discussion that took place there... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Yes, I think it is. Mr McMichael, have you finished? Ms McWilliams: Mr Chairman, I did not hear you say that it was objectionable language. Either you will rule that it is objectionable language, or some of us will have problems... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Coulter: As one of the people singled out for attention in respect of this matter, I should like to make a number of points. What is the Business Committee for if it is not to give you, Mr Chairman, guidance on the generality of opinion among its... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: Can we now draw the discussion to a close and get on with the business on the agenda? Rev Dr Ian Paisley: I have a motion before the House. The Chairman: Lord Alderdice is next. Lord Alderdice: I have had my name down for some time. A... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Lord Alderdice:] Mr Chairman, you have a difficult job in trying to keep some form of order here, and it is going to be made more and more difficult. I encourage you to take heed of some of Mr Robinson's comments about the importance of keeping to the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Jim Rodgers: I refer to remarks made by Mr Cedric Wilson. He said that my party — the Ulster Unionist Party — is attempting to stifle debate and is not prepared to have openness. He made a most vicious attack, which I and the Members from my party... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Cedric Wilson: Mr Rodgers has mentioned me. I am very glad to hear of his desire to have this motion debated. I have heard this from Mr Nesbitt and others, and I believe that the matter should now be put to the vote. I propose that you, Mr Chairman,... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Nesbitt: This arose when we had the education debate. Dr Paisley has moved a motion, but the Rules of Procedure say "Except by leave or order of the Forum, no motion" - Rev Dr Ian Paisley: It is a pity the Member did not open his ears and listen... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Question put: That the amendment be made. The Forum divided: Ayes 26; Noes 28. Ayes: David Campbell, Hugh Casey, James Clarke, Robert Coulter, Ivan Davis, Reg Empey, David Ervine, Sam Foster, Sam Gardiner, Derek Hussey, John Junkin, Peter King, Alan... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: What was the amendment? Mr Gardiner: I moved an amendment that the matter be referred back to the Business Committee. Rev Dr Ian Paisley: May I draw Mr Nesbitt's attention to the fact that one of the leaders of his own party admits that... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Main Question put. The Forum divided: Ayes 22; Noes 32. Ayes: May Beattie, Robert Bolton, Cecil Calvert, Mervyn Carrick, Wilson Clyde, Nigel Dodds, Oliver Gibson, Trevor Kirkland, St Clair McAlister, Robert McCartney, Jack McKee, Maurice Morrow, Ian... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr David Campbell: On behalf of the Committee, I thank Mr Trimble and Dr Paisley for their reports. I share their concern and anger at the initial announcement from Downing Street last night. I am slightly encouraged by Dr Paisley's comments on the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Neeson: As the person who led off, I have a problem, in that I shall not be able to attend next Friday. I would not be able to comment, though I must admit that I am largely in agreement with what has been said. Perhaps I can facilitate the Forum by... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[The Chairman:] Is it the wish of Members that the debate on housing be adjourned until next Friday? Several Members: Agreed. Mr Taylor: Whilst I agree with your sentiment, Mr Chairman, I think you ought to decide in accordance with the relevant... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Thomas Robinson: I am very glad that Mr Neeson has mentioned rural areas. Perhaps he is going to elaborate. Is he aware that under the rural development strategy and the countryside planning policy it is now impossible for sons or daughters of... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Rule 13(1): Mechanism to Determine Sufficient Cross-Community Support Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Jim Rodgers: I have spoken to Members from the SDLP who were formerly in the Forum, and I know that they are anxious to get back. That is especially true of some of the young Members. The problem lies with the leadership. It is clear that while John... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Speers: An hour and 20 minutes ago I was in reasonably full fling, and to some extent I have, as it were, got off the track. I was speaking about the role of the Department and the whole business of mixed funding and its possible effects. When the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Gibson: Unfortunately, I am not able to take Members on a geographical tour of Northern Ireland, and I have not enjoyed the mind-blowing experiences that Mr Hugh Smyth seems to have had on Housing Executive tours. I want to congratulate the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
The Chairman: I am going to put a stark choice to you: either you trust me to do my best, or we continue in the limbo in which we have operated hitherto, with no Rules other than those that the Secretary of State laid down for us to begin with. Mr... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Hugh Smyth:] I would like to know how many handicapped people are employed by the Forum. We could all do more. Mr Smyth is right: we will pass this motion, and we will leave and say "Wasn't that great?", and nothing will happen. Although I am... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
[Mr Hugh Smyth:] Finally, I come to a point that is personal to me. I have a young niece who attended Fleming Fulton School from the age of three to 19 — she left just last year. She cannot speak or hear, but I refuse to call her deaf and dumb. She may... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Davis: One thing we can all agree on this morning is that it is very good to have some refreshment in front of us, and even better to know that it comes from the borough of Lisburn. Great advances have been made in all aspects of housing, and we... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Shannon: I would like to endorse the proposal that has been put forward and to support the amendment. The good work of the Housing Executive has been recognized, but it has been constrained by the financial conditions imposed by the Government.... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Jim Rodgers: During this debate I have heard a great deal about the great job the Housing Executive has done. As a representative of East Belfast, I have to take issue with such remarks. Anybody looking at the east of the city will see very clearly... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McKee: Much has been said about this issue, and some very good points have been made. I too support the motion. I congratulate the housing associations. In my area, organizations such as the Fold, the Royal British Legion and Laharna, which cater... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Rev Trevor Kirkland: This is certainly an important debate. It is good to have a fresh look at housing. I have had a number of problems with the debate so far. I listened carefully last week, and I have taken time to read the various speeches. Several... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Lord Alderdice: A number of folk have patted all of us on the back for the tremendous work we are doing here and for our thoughtful debates. I think we should be a little more self-critical. We should examine some of the things we have been saying,... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Clarke: Mr Eric Smyth has brought to the fore the fallacy that disabled people are not intelligent. It has been proved that such people can be very intelligent — and that includes those who are dyslexic. This should be recognized. I pay tribute to... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Lord Alderdice: My point — I make it again in case there are folk who have not been listening carefully — is that if we want to be taken seriously politically, and if there are people here who want to exercise real control and power in Northern... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mrs Beattie: I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this very important debate. As a member of the newly formed Health Committee, I hope to gather some useful information from Members' comments for future reference. My first point — and one... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Gardiner: Before speaking on behalf of the Ulster Unionist Party in support of the motion, I want to congratulate Mrs Parkes on her contribution in respect of such an important subject. I support the setting up of a body with legal powers. Indeed,... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McMichael: I congratulate Mrs Parkes for her very comprehensive remarks in introducing the motion. Discrimination against people who are disabled is an issue which has not received adequate public attention — and we are all guilty. Failure... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Bolton: It is indeed a serious indictment of those who govern us that we are hearing today about so much discrimination against the disabled. Most comment has been about physically disabled adults, who are, incidentally, represented in the Chamber... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Cedric Wilson: I want to develop one comment made by Mr Eric Smyth. Prior to my election to the Forum and to the talks team, I worked daily with people who have a wide range of handicaps and disabilities. I could speak at some length about the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms Sagar: A number of problems concerning the Disability Discrimination Act have already been highlighted. I hate repeating what people have said, but that is what I am about to do. I will try to be extremely brief. The number of disabled people in... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McCarthy: Disability plays a major part in my life and, indeed, in the life of my whole family. And I am sure that there are other Members who are equally involved. I hope that the subject will get everyone's attention and that this debate will help... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Dodds: It is very timely that we are having this debate today, given the launch of the Northern Ireland Disability Council on Tuesday. I want to congratulate Mrs Parkes on the way she introduced the subject. It was an excellent speech. Indeed, there... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Jim Rodgers: Most of the 26 district councils in Northern Ireland are represented in the Forum. At least, they were until a few weeks ago. I should like to put a few pointed questions today to those who are council members. The introduction of these... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Casey: I am grateful for the opportunity to support this motion. I did not intend to speak on the subject — if you come in at the end, there is very little left to say — but, just in case Mr McKee thinks we do not have any contribution to make, I... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McCartney: My party fully supports the motion. I have listened with great interest to the speeches of Mr Foster, who brings a wealth of knowledge to the debate, and of Mr Dodds and Mr McCarthy, who bring a considerable amount of experience not only... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Robert John White: I would like to speak on behalf of the oldies, but I will not quadruplicate anything that has been said already. In 1977 a number of people involved in local councils and I wrote to the DOE and many other people. Their response... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Eric Smyth: I rise to support the motion. As one who has two kids, one mentally handicapped and one physically handicapped, and as one who is dyslexic - people forget that dyslexia is also a handicap - I know something about this subject. Many... Friday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
Business Plan for 8 July 1996 Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Forum Committees: New Committee on Disabilities Friday September 1996Committee: Business Committee
The Chairman: We have had a very helpful meeting of the Business Committee. I want to thank all those who attended and who contributed. We have got a very good business plan for the rest of the day, which I would like to put to the Forum. I hope that... Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Benson: The education matter is of such importance that one hour's debate today would not be sufficient. This subject should be put back to a day when we could have a full debate on it. Ms Brid Rodgers: I thought the decision was to suspend and let... Monday July 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Hugh Smyth: May I, in supporting the motion, first of all pay tribute to Mrs Parkes, who brought the subject before us, for the adequate way in which she dealt with it. Those of us who are acquainted with her father-in-law know that he would be very... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Cedric Wilson: Can you deal with my request, Mr Chairman? I am not doing this to be selfish. It was agreed by the Business Committee and by the Secretary to the Forum that this matter would be dealt with at the end of today's business. Rev Dr Ian... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Ms McWilliams: I support Dr Paisley on this. We have no difficulty about the boycotting issue being added to the brief of the Parades Committee. A Member: The road to Damascus. Ms McWilliams: The term "road to Damascus" is not appropriate. This... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr McKee: My party asked me for possible topics for debate in the Forum, and disability is the one I suggested. I am glad that a subject so worthy of debate was taken up. In common with Mr Dodds, Mr McCarthy and others, I know something about the... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Lord Alderdice: I did not intend to speak in this debate, but I want to voice strong support for many of the points made — and made very well — by people who have personal experience of disabilities and to respond to what has been said about two issues... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Tom Robinson: We are all grateful to Mrs Parkes for having opened the debate and produced the relevant figures. One does not realize the extent of the problem until one sees the figures. About 17.4% of the adult population of Northern Ireland have... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mrs Steele: Like the other May, I am a member of the Health Committee and, as such, anxious to ensure that everyone in Northern Ireland who suffers from any type of physical or mental illness or disablement has a good opportunity for treatment and is... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Calvert: I rise to support the motion. Today's debate on this very important subject proves, without a shadow of doubt, the worth of the Forum. Despite the views of the Alliance Leader, Lord Alderdice, and the SDLP's boycotting of the Forum,... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
4.00 pm The Chairman: Thank you, Mr Calvert. You have all been so succinct. Mr Poots, you have 15 minutes, but you do not have to take all of it. Mr Poots: This subject is very close to my heart. My oldest brother was mentally handicapped at birth.... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Nesbitt: As several Members have indicated, little remains to be said. I shall dwell on just a few points that have permeated the debate. I shall be looking for what will happen after all the representations have been made. Can we judge whether... Friday September 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Empey: Mr Hugh Smyth knows very well that we on this side of the House have not attempted to dump his party or the Ulster Democratic Party. If people study our proposals they will see that we have offered a way out. While I accept and acknowledge... Friday October 1996Committee: The Forum
Mr Weir: As a believer in Unionist unity, I do not intend to snipe at other Unionists. That is not productive use of our time. Many people in this country say that the talks should not be happening, and in one sense I tend to agree. If the Government... Friday October 1996